Dear Rosy Episode 4
Rosy 00:00:01 Hello!
Sayeed 00:00:03 Good afternoon, or morning,
Rosy 00:00:05 Or evening! <laugh>. Thanks for joining us for Dear Rosy and Hey Sayeed I hope everyone's having a good day today, and I hope that today we can support y'all on the topic of boundaries and energy management. But before we get into the boundaries and energy management, knowing when to let go and, you know, setting boundaries in your work with the community, why don't we start with a little icebreaker?
Sayeed 00:00:35 Cute. So, I have the opportunity to lead the icebreaker with y'all today. And so the question I want to ask you, Rosy, is what's a book that's important to you and why? I'm a literary nerd, so that's why I'm asking that.
Rosy 00:00:51 So I am not a literary nerd. I's one of the things I always aspire to read more and I'm just not a reader. But I have read, so I'm actually gonna give two answers. When you said this question, I got a little intimidated and insecure because I'm not a big reader. But then you were so sweet about it, it could be any book at any time. And I'm like, okay. Well, when I was in grade school, or probably in second, third grade, I can't remember what age, maybe older, I read a biography on Amelia Earhart. And my not wanting to read has been something that's happened since I was younger. <laugh> I would just read what I had to. But this bio of Amelia Earhart, I would read it many, many times.
Rosy 00:01:35 And I think about it now and I wonder if it's because it just seemed, and it was about her, like her flying and disappearing and doing all these things for the first time that people thought were impossible for her to do. And I think, especially as a woman, I read that and thought, oh wow, like anything is possible and if this woman can do it, so can I. And being a young little Latina girl who moved from a predominantly white Spanish speaking neighborhood to then a predominantly Mexican immigrant, Spanish speaking neighborhood to a predominantly white no one speaks Spanish neighborhood, and feeling like everything was impossible, made me feel like this could be possible. I can succeed and I can also like, fly around the world. <laugh> And hopefully not disappear, but, you know, anything is possible. And all the books I'm reading right now are about parenting. So, um, Good Inside by Becky Kennedy. And that's just, uh, triggering stuff, but also helping me give myself some compassion on a regular basis, which I definitely recommend for any parents out there.
Sayeed 00:02:42 Wow. Thank you for sharing on both aspects and bringing in your kind of personal connection. And I appreciate the—from, from the childhood to now and sort of sharing that different, different phases, but there's definitely, I feel like that connection of leadership, and it's also a really beautiful thing. I always think of sometimes when people are like, would be like on the parenting note, like, oh, well there's no handbook or hand guide for this. And I'm like, well, now we do have a couple <laugh>.
Rosy 00:03:09 There are some good books out there that are really helpful. And even though they can't tell you, like they'll, they will tell you this how you do it. But the biggest message that's been helpful is that self-compassion of like, just reminding you that, that we are imperfect and we're trying the best we can. And, and sometimes I've been doing audio books for that, and that's been really helpful. What about you? What about you? I'm sure you have a lot to choose from <laugh>,
Sayeed 00:03:32 Yeah. Um, well disclaimer, I definitely, I do love to read, but I feel like reading comes in so many, you know, different forms. I just love knowledge acquisition, so that's, whether that's conversing about ideas, audio books, traditional reading, old school, all of those forms are very enriching to me. Um, but I find myself like kind of moving back a little bit into fiction. I am usually nonfiction. There's a lot of what I read. I love to read theory, I love to read articles to keep up on things. But I'm also wanting feeling a pushback into fiction. And so a book that's been very important to me, and I feel like it's a nice, another as enter into this, this chapter of my life too. Um, I love James Baldwin, and I really like Giovanni's Room and I recommend that to everybody.
Sayeed 00:04:21 It's a very beautiful, romantic, tragic tale, but I feel like, it's also a gorgeous tale about identity, loss, transitional life stages, living, what it's like to live in a different social context, obviously around race and nationality. But just very powerful. And it's also like a short little novella. Like, it's not that long, but it's cute. So I let people know too, if you feel like, you know, sometimes things can be a little bit intimidating, like a super, super long book I'd be intimidated by that too. But this one, it's under 200 pages, But it's just like Oh wow.
Rosy 00:04:58 Giovanni's Room. Ok.
Sayeed 00:04:59 Definitely recommend. It's a very important book to me. So yeah, thanks for indulging me in that. And I hope that gets you guys thinking about what books or what texts that you are engaging with or would like to engage with. And that's kind of a connection to, into boundaries and energy management as Rosy so sweetly shared with us, we are gonna talk about this in the context of the work that we do. And then for us in the social sector, a lot of times, right, we are receiving messaging where this is difficult to feel that we can set boundaries or to take the time for ourselves, or in some ways maybe we are even discouraged to do it, right, because we have a personal connection to the work. And so Rosy, I kind of wanna just start us off and um, maybe if you can even just give us, a working definition for our audience and what do you mean as a clinician, as a mental health professional, when you talk about boundaries and energy management, can you just start us off, what does that mean to you?
Rosy 00:05:55 Sure. boundaries to me, and I'm glad you asked that as the first question 'cause I do think boundaries has become very big, pop culture, word, word, that sometimes then we lose the definition of what it actually means. Boundaries are something that are not always super strict and can be flexible. And they are about being able to communicate your needs and wants and in order to communicate your needs and wants, you need to know what those needs and wants are in the first place. So I think both of those go hand in hand. And also that they are flexible, meaning our needs and wants are not the same all the time. So the boundary or the way I communicate what my needs are wants can change at times. And it's okay if they change. I think sometimes people challenge when you're like, I need this.
Rosy 00:06:45 And like, well, you said you needed this now and now you're changing it to this. Yeah. I get to change my mind and I get to have different needs and wants. That's not the issue. What's important is that I can communicate with the other person. And tell that person, this is my need. And that person can say, uh, yes, I can provide that for you. Or No, actually I have this need or want. And let's see if we can compromise. What about, what do you think about this middle ground, right? And go back and forth. So besides knowing and assessing and reflecting on knowing what your limits are and what you're capable of doing, and how much energy you have for different situations. So you can set needs and wants is important as well. It sounds a little abstract so we can talk about examples.
Rosy 00:07:33 Right. And I think that maybe that that might help if we actually set examples. Let's talk outside of work at first. Different people have different relationships with their family. And there are different kinds of family events and activities. And sometimes, I as a Latina are expected to go to a lot more events. And sometimes I have to set boundaries. I have a wonderful family, extended family gets together very, very often, which I really, really appreciate and cherish as a young child. 'cause I got to see my cousins so much. And we have such great relationships now. But now as an adult, I don't really connect with everyone in the same way. And also have noticed some problematic behaviors at times that I don't wanna be around or I have to manage my reaction at certain things.
Rosy 00:08:22 So, um, certain social activities require more energy of me, by energy means that I need to regulate my emotions if someone is doing or saying something that I don't really agree with or doing or saying something that actually might make me upset. Um, so sometimes I don't go to things because I don't have the energy to put up with it. And sometimes I do go to things and I say something like, hey, I'd rather you not say that in front of me. Because I have enough energy for that. And sometimes I go to things and I don't say anything, but I walk away. So, but the boundary I set was I walked away. So those are all boundaries. Me not going to an event because maybe I don't have the energy to be around people that may not share my values or respect.
Rosy 00:09:05 It's the same respect, different parts of me, or I might hear things that might upset me. That's one boundary. Just not going. Another boundary can look different. 'cause I can go and I can say, Hey, and actually say something and say, I don't, I'd rather you not say that. Or I can walk away or I can, um, have a buffer and go with someone else and just say, Hey, this person gets near me, make up a reason for me to, that's another boundary. Right. But, um, communicating is important, but also recognizing that it's not always safe to communicate exactly what you're doing. And that's why sometimes you do need a buffer or something else. But those are all different kinds of boundaries that you can set. Some of 'em are boundaries you're setting internally on how you're managing situations. And some of 'em are externally as if I say, hey, don't speak like that in front of me, or I'd rather you, use my correct name when you're speaking of me.
Rosy 00:09:56 Or, not make those sexist remarks when I'm around, you know, or whatever that is. So it could be outward or it could be inward and it could be, oh, I recognize that what that person said is upsetting me. I don't have the energy or feel safe enough to say something. So I am going to walk away now. And also maybe I don't come next time. And that's something that's internally in order. And that's emotional regulation too. You're choosing not to engage in that. Now we're talking about personally, and I know we talk about work things here, reflecting back on work that boundaries can be just a, hey, expectation for me is that after five o'clock on a Friday, you're not gonna hear any responses from emails until Monday. Away messages is a boundary.
Sayeed 00:10:47 True, true. I appreciate all of these examples from the personal to the professional, because I think what I'm hearing and listening from you is that there's an awareness of what do I need to feel safe and respected and how am I communicating that? So that connection from the personal, whether you're doing that with your family members so they know whether you have the energy to do that. And then in the professional context as well with coworkers, colleagues, clients, different, different elements. Right. Sometimes it's as simple as, Hey, I'm on a work conference, or I'm traveling for work, so I have this out of office email and I'm letting people know that I'm gonna need additional time to respond. Or perhaps I may not even respond until I'm fully back in office. I appreciate you bringing that. And then I just wanna kind of, you know, explore more and maybe I'm projecting, so let me know. But why does it feel so hard in this sector to do that?
Rosy 00:11:39 Because it's hard to do it at any time. And that's why I brought up family. Because I do think when you do social service work, it feels similar to family. I made that example as if it was so easy to do. <laugh>, I didn't mention all the guilt that comes with canceling and not going to to like your favorite cousin's kids' baptism because that or,
Sayeed 00:11:56 Or are the questions you get, where were you?
Rosy 00:11:57 Yeah. And then feeling guilty about that and feeling like the bad daughter. 'cause now your mom, your parents are getting questioned 'cause your daughter's not there. And now we feel guilty 'cause they feel bad. And I think that comes up at work too, in a way that we feel that we need to show up because that's how we support the community. So as we work with survivors of sexual assault, maybe we feel like if I set this boundary, if I'm not available 24 7, that I'm letting down this community. If I'm not going to every single thing, if I'm not applying for every single possible grant that exists on this planet and you know, not sleeping because I'm doing all this work, then I'm letting down this client. And the work we do does make such an amazing impact on a community of people and it aligns with our values and how we care for others. So us thinking, us taking rest sometimes makes us feel like we're doing a disservice when in reality we're trying to take care of selves so we can continue to do the work.
Sayeed 00:12:57 The longevity and the sustainability. And I know you have heard us, audiences heard us speak about this in the earlier episodes, but that's why I'm always thinking like, to me the key is long-term sustainability and longevity. Right. And in order to continue doing this incredibly needed and powerful work, we also have to be tending to our own needs. And we need to ensure, I think it's part of it. We care about the folks that we're taking care of and we should also have the energy to want to care for ourselves and also, and for myself becoming more comfortable with requesting care, right. And becoming more comfortable with making the idea of my care as an important, I don't know about y'all, but like to me that's sometimes the scariest or most foreign. It's like, wait, my feelings matter too. I'm like, I wasn't taught that.
Rosy 00:13:40 That's super common. Right. That's why we end up in these fields sometimes too, is because we're the helper. Right? And that's why I mentioned that you need to figure out what your needs and wants are. And 'cause we don't even know how to do that sometimes. 'cause we're so focused on everyone else's needs and wants. So like there the groundwork is that is like, what are you missing? What are you needing? You can't really communicate your boundaries if, if you don't know what that is in the first place. And that's an internal work about boundaries for sure that isn't talked about enough is how are you doing the internal work, the knowing what your needs are and wants are, and also following through with it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you might communicate boundaries. I'm not gonna answer the phone. But then you still do it. And then you're also not really setting boundaries.
Sayeed 00:14:25 And I feel like also too, and this is like a real accountability to myself is like you're kind of teaching other people that if you're saying something but not respecting your own boundaries, they may subconsciously learn that they don't have to respect yours. Right. Or, and all best intentions, I don't know. And it's like, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's like, wait, if I said I wasn't gonna answer these emails after five, I'm answering them after five. Now my boss is like, okay, well, so it's fine answering emails after five and then we continue that practice when in reality I never wanted to answer after five.
Rosy 00:14:54 <laugh>. Yeah. Now you might be angry that they're doing this. Like I said this and they're still doing this. Yeah. They're doing it. They're going against the boundary I set and now it's their fault. But it's like, what role are we playing?
Sayeed 00:15:04 Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard. It's, I think it's the, so the implication and so I agree. That's been hard at times because again, we care about the work we want, we know it's urgent and it's important. But then again, that part about recharging and sustainability is so key. And then I think for myself teaching in a professional context, this looks like letting supervisors know what works for me and, kind of sticking to that. Right. And like trying to shift so that the relationship, the professional working relationship improves or feels a little bit easier. Like both of our needs are gonna get met. Right. Like the supervisor trusts that I will answer. And I trust that like my boundary around not working these traditional hours, is respected. And so we can, we can work there. So I just, I'd love to hear your continued thoughts on that. Or maybe some advice, what do we do when we feel like maybe we're uncomfortable or we have some friction with setting those boundaries.
Rosy 00:16:00 Sure. I think it depends just how there's safety issues outside of work. Yeah. There's obviously also safety issues in work, especially when your supervisors are, I mean, they control how you pay to feed yourself or how do you support financially support your family. So sometimes it's harder to set that boundary at work. There are laws in place though also to make sure that you're being supported and that you're not being harmed when you are trying to address your needs and wants. And it's important for us to be educated on those as well and figuring out what are your state laws and what are required. I mean, thinking of even early on work of just how many hours are you working before you should be able to take a lunch? Right? Or a break or how many hours. And then you're supposed to get a break. And these are laws that are in place. And I think sometimes in social services, we don't talk about them as much or they're not being implemented. And also it's, you know, we talked about culture before. There's a culture of like, you're looked down upon too. If you set too many boundaries, it's like, no quiere trabajar? Like, you don't wanna work. You don't really care about the community.
Sayeed 00:17:03 You're not a go-getter, you're not serious about it or things like that. Real passive. Right. And I think that to me is a sign of like organizational health and the organizational culture. And I'm like, wait, if people are feeling that way then, or they're making those comments and I'm like, I wanna be at an org where I feel respected, cared for and the genuine concern for my wellbeing is in tandem with community members' wellbeing.
Rosy 00:17:28 Yeah. So if you're in a situation like that where you're not feeling super comfortable going to your direct supervisor, are there policies, is there an HR department or you in an organization that's large enough where there is an HR you can speak to or a peer, you can just ask some questions about to like get a feeler for the culture. Like find other people who might also be experiencing that. Maybe you start outside of work and talk to other people. Not naming names, but just like, you know, seeking support from peers and outside to find out and help validate your experience and, and better understand like, what are your rights and what can you actually say and what are the safe spaces you can use? And, and unfortunately they, they're not always in your agency. And I, I hope that there is someone in your organization that you can go to or there's an HR department or a peer or someone who can guide you and support you through this.
Rosy 00:18:19 Um, but if there isn't, there are outside sources that can also be supportive and guide you in how to move forward. And in the long term, if it's really a place that doesn't respect your boundaries, and unfortunately the climate isn't the best to be looking for new jobs, maybe that's also, you know, like what, what can you con control what's under your control in this situation? Setting boundaries. Another thing I'm gonna bring up, we were talking about making people feel bad for not working. Sometimes when you have a skill that's outside of maybe the norm of the person in the organization, or you tend to get things done more, you get more work.
Sayeed 00:18:52 Rewarded with more work.
Rosy 00:18:53 Oh my goodness. Rewarded with more work. I'm a bilingual therapist and I recall some of my first jobs, you know, feeling pressured to take on more clients faster than other people because they had a longer wait for bilingual therapists.
Sayeed 00:19:07 It's like, are you getting paid more?
Rosy 00:19:09 Exactly. And, and it's like, oh, my caseload would be out of control. And since I was a young clinician who went into this field wanting to support my community knowing that there is a lack of therapists. And this community, I would do it. 'cause I'm like, I wanna help these children that are, you know, have this trauma history. I wanna help, I wanna help. And what I wasn't seeing as a young therapist completely is that as long as also I keep doing that work, then they're not systemically making any changes to address this actual systemic issue, which is you don't have enough bilingual therapists if you have this much, you know, people like more than one at leastly I where I'm the only one. Oh my goodness. There's gonna be usually a wait list that just, that's the reality of our situation for people who are looking maybe for sliding scale or lower fee services sometimes. But there are also things that can be done from within to change that. And if I keep picking up that slack, then when, how, how are we supposed to have an actual argument on, look, this is how many clients are waiting, this is why we need to support having culturally responsive care to this specific community. And this is how we can start building that area,
Sayeed 00:20:25 Shifting resources
Rosy 00:20:26 From a systemic level and shifting resources and supporting a community and, and opening up jobs for more people out there as well. So in my head I was helping more, but I think sometimes I was actually bringing us back in actual systemic change by not by taking on more of that load and hurting myself.
Sayeed 00:20:46 You know, hindsight's 2020, I think it's the thing, it's like, I also think of it again, the setup was not really set up for you to succeed. Right. Because they sort of, to me the onus is really on leadership to address and acknowledge that issue and then start to shift it, like we said, shifting the resource, shifting the time. But when it comes to these things, like these are trainings and these are skill sets, and one, to me, I view it in an equity lens. So it's like if you're having, it's often is women of color in these sectors who carry that culturally specific or the language based skills, et cetera. And so you have an issue of like, one, are they being paid more, often times not. Um, and then two, the sustainability, like again, if you only have one person who's doing that, then Yeah.
Sayeed 00:21:28 And then, then I just imagine it creates an intense amount of pressure for you or other people who have the skillset, which kind of brings me to that other thing. It's so hard you feel like you can't take a break. Right. Because you know, you're the only person in that organization, right. Who has a specific skillset. But then that almost breeds, I don't know if it's too strong, but it feels to me almost codependent because you get to the point of like, now you can't leave because then then, you know, the clients are not, community members are not getting their skills and everything. So again, I appreciate that you bring it back to the sense of, again, the structure and the system and just looking at what can we do to now shift allocate resources. Maybe that means training bilingual, right? Or if you have clinicians who are able to do the work, but we need to do some training so that it becomes culturally relevant so that they have the language access and that there is more people who can do this work who are trained to do that. Right. Or we start doing some collaborative work with other organizations, outsourcing, empowerment training. There's a lot of things, but I just want to make sure it doesn't fall on the individual.
Rosy 00:22:26 Yeah. I think sometimes the easy answer is like, just give more clients to that one person or give more work to one person. But that isn't the easy answer. It could be a temporary fix with a timeline within a strategy. Like you just aimed so many options that take time to figure out, but are possible. So how do you think about how that would be a more systemic change that's gonna be longstanding and hopeful. Let's burn out these new clinicians. Besides burnout, what kind of quality care are these clients actually receiving? If you have a clinician or a provider, a case manager seeing a ton of people a day, like there's no way that person is gonna be able to provide the best quality care if they're not able to have space to like really even think in between. And also I do wanna say something that's uncomfortable to talk about.
Rosy 00:23:17 And something I had to sit with. You mentioned feeling like you're the only one. Right. So I'm the only one who can help. So I'm kind of chained to this place. Like I have to stay, I can't go anywhere else. And it, that's also kind of the , a little bit of an abuse, power control thing, right? But also, reflect on like, what are you getting from this? Right. And that's something I had to do. You know, I had my therapist tell me like, you're not the only one who can provide therapy to these people. And in my head I was like, yes, no, I am, I'm like the only bilingual therapist, but that's not true. Right. And there's also this, this complex, not complex, but also reflecting.
Rosy 00:23:58 I felt so special. Right. Like, I'm getting this special treatment. There's a little bit of ego, a little bit of, yeah, we're talking about helping others, but there's a little bit of ego in there that I'm, that's also getting fed for me feeling so special. I'm the only one. And I help everyone and I am the helper. And I'm still helping and I'm, my value is still be supportive, but there was a little bit of me in there that was getting in the way. 'cause it was like, I'm so special. I'm the one who helps everybody. And I had to really challenge that and let that go.
Sayeed 00:24:33 I appreciate the vulnerability and just the realness of that because I think that's really true. I think t's sometimes a very humbling, or there's an invitation for, for a bit of humility in the sense of like, you had your mental health practitioner, right? A therapist, it kind of reminds you is like, yeah, you do very important work and you have a very specific needed skillset in dire need at that work. You are not the only person who can ever do that. Right. Or the only person who can. And so there is a bit of that. I think that's it's sometimes a difficult conversation to have because I think that obviously the vast majority of us by far are joining this work because we are motivated by need to support our community and everything. But I think it's also fair to be like, pause, when does this slide?
Sayeed 00:25:14 Is this fully altruistic? Are we really doing this for the sake of helping others? Are we doing this because we're also starting to try to, you know, address some of our own childhood wounds where we always needed to be needed. And I'm just saying that as somebody who has in this sector can sometimes attract that a bit. And so I think it's like, let's get into it. It's a little bit of a touchy subject and let's, let's avoid the binaries. It doesn't mean you're a good or a bad person, right. We're gonna look at the behavior. It is what it is. But let's look at a system that kind of encourages that. Right. Or attracts a certain type, doesn't set us up for success, encourages this burnout behavior and then disposes of us and then finds another sort of bright eye recent graduate ready to do their calls and save the world.
Rosy 00:25:56 Save the world.
Sayeed 00:25:57 Then later they're like, oh, what happened? <laugh>.
Rosy 00:26:00 Yeah. And I think, it is complex, right? It's not, like you said, it's not all good. It's not all bad. It's not “I wanted to do this just for me”. No, there's the powerand cultural dynamic. There's the culture, there's some manipulation, there's like a high need, there's a higher system that's not providing support to specific communities. There's a lot. Right? It's a lot. It's not just that it's a me issue, but I think it is important. Like, like we talked about it. It was, oh, it's so hard for me. I hated it. I was like mad at my therapist. I'm like, how dare you say that about me <laugh> like I help people, they need me. Right? But no, there was, and also I help being burnt out also helped me not have to deal with my own stuff.
Rosy 00:26:38 Right? I'm so busy being burnt out. I don't have to deal about, I don't have, have to make big decisions about some of the things at home that probably I need to work on too. So then, like that's my therapy work. Not to get into too much detail, but I wanna be vulnerable. I wanna be real about that. Like, there, there are me things that are involved and there's gonna be you things involved in what's happening. That is not the only thing happening, but it is important to take care of yourself and be reflective and get to know yourself so you can come in and call out the stuff that isn't you stuff, the systemic stuff, the harmful stuff. It'll be easier to see the harm when you are addressing the harm that's been done within you that you're trying to heal, like you said. And not perpetuate that in other spaces. And it's not obvious.
Sayeed 00:27:26 No, no. And so, I mean yes, a hundred percent to all of this. And I think that brings us in kind of the thing. And as guidance to, to our audience. Like what are the ways, Rosie, that are kind of the telltale signs or you think when maybe we need to take a step back or we need to pause maybe that, whether that's PTO or reduce our client load or it may be temporary, permanent, whatever, but what are some telltale signs when we feel like we're starting to get that point where our energy is maybe being burnt out or we find that our boundaries are consistently, whether internally ourselves or externally with other people, they're not being respected.
Rosy 00:28:05 Are you dreaming about work all the time?
Sayeed 00:28:11 That’s happened to me before. It's freaky <laugh>. Yeah,
Rosy 00:28:12 It is. That it's, that's a sign. You need a break. Like if you're, yeah, that's happened to me. If you're dreaming of work, that means like, and it could be a temporary thing 'cause it's like a heavy season for sure. You know? But keep an eye on that. Like, is that the only thing? Is that the only thing you're talking about?
Sayeed 00:28:29 My friends help me check in. Like, oh girl, you're only talking about work or such. What's going on there? Or like, are you good? Like, or they ask you, how are you? And you just talk about I'm working on this. But you just talk about all the things you need to get done work or that what you did.
Rosy 00:28:43 Work, work, work. And I mean, that's if you see your friends <laugh>. Yeah. So when was the last time you saw your friends? When's the last time you saw your family? When's the last time you talked to anyone or did anything that was like outside of work stuff? And then are you feeling uncomfortable at work? Are you scared to ask for a day off? Are you scared to ask for something of your supervisor? Do you get nervous before you go talk to your supervisor? And this is again, why you need to do your own work. Because I have a thing with authority where I, every time someone used to talk to me and be like, oh, I need to talk to, you'd be like, oh, I'm in trouble. And I'd get like nervous. So like, I knew that was my stuff from before, but how do I pull that apart from also the stuff that's going on in the actual dynamic with my boss or supervisor where they're treating me in certain ways or not respecting my boundaries and that's why I feel like uncomfortable with them. Or I feel like I need to have, um, a whole report and evidence to ask for a day off or two day,
Sayeed 00:29:39 You know? Yeah. I know. To justify it. To justify,
Rosy 00:29:41 Right.
Sayeed 00:29:42 There’s so much where we have to justify and I'm, I've been working, it's like the internal thing of like, wait, why do I need to justify if I'm like, even sometimes I'm just like, well, I'm not really that sick, I can just finish. And I was like, no, you have yourPTO, you're sick time off. Like you're legally entitled to it if you're sick, you use that. Like, that's a simple thing for me. But I've just been so trained and ingrained and I, and I can maintain it myself. I'm taking responsibility and need to unwork some of that conditioning. Right?
Rosy 00:30:12 Yes. That sick thing. I remember starting a job and someone told me, Hey, heads up, no one here will send you home if they see you sick. <laugh> <laugh>. Like, they do not care. They don't care girl. Like they'll say you look awful, they will see that you look awful and they will not send you home. And that's when it hit me like, 'cause then I was younger and I was like, oh, I, I thought I wasn't allowed to, like I would always go in sick regularly, right? And people would send me home and I'm like, oh no, you need to figure this out Rosy. Because like it's on you. No one's gonna send you home. And trying to figure out the guilt I would get for calling off sick. I would make me sicker, make it worse.
Sayeed 00:30:52 And you'd end up having to be take more time off probably because you were under so much duress.
Rosy 00:30:55 It would be so bad. But that's something like, that's a culture. So like that's even something you can ask around when you first start a job is just like, what's the call off sick culture here?
Sayeed 00:31:05 That’s a good question. That's a good point.
Rosy 00:31:06 You know, like, how often are people calling off sick? We live in Chicago and like flu season's a thing. And if now that I have a kid, I'm sick all the time. He's sick all the time. Right? So like, what is the culture here of being sick? Also, I don't wanna see you, I don't wanna get sick, so don't be in here.
Sayeed 00:31:23 No, no, no. But it's like, use your time. But then it's like, model that or be honest and, and like create the conditions. But if you also are constantly working somewhere where you feel like that you can't take the time off or that there's always, then you feel guilty because your colleagues have to shoulder more work or all these things. Like there's very real valid concerns. But again, back to that point of like longevity and sustainability, it's just, it's not sustainable. You can only, sure, you can keep up that for a little bit, but you can't do the hamster wheel forever. <laugh>. It’s gonna catch up to you.
Rosy 00:31:50 No, and you were probably already doing it for quite a while before you got to where you're at. Especially if you hold some of the identities we hold, It's the only way to get here, <laugh>. Um, it feels that way. If you're feeling it in your gut, you feel off, something's up, talk about it. And if you don't feel like comfortable talking about it at work, talk about it with a friend. And if they're not validating you and you're still feeling this way, find someone else to talk to about it. Listen to, trust your instinct. Talk to us. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we, we started this podcast, right? Because sometimes you are in spaces where you're not, the culture is so unhealthy that everyone invalidates your experience of trying to name it and normalizes it to be that way. And if you try to set boundaries or try to, you can do all these things that we're recommending. Yep. And you still feel the same. It's usually because the culture itself is just fighting you on it.
Sayeed 00:32:48 So you may feel like, I think we've said this in previous episodes, you're kind of swimming upstream or going counterculture and that might be a sign that, you know, you are trying to shift the culture, create a place that you can really envision working at. And it's up to everybody, right? We all have different lives, different backgrounds, different reasons. We're doing this work for pay, obviously. Like we have to, you know, we've got different responsibilities, commitments. But it's a important question. And I'll use the I, for me, it's an important question that I like to regularly ask myself every couple of months. Do I find alignment? Do I find, do I feel listened to? Do I find you know, that this is overall in the right direction of where I'm going? And I think it's important to regularly ask yourself that because you are only the one who can define that self, right?
Sayeed 00:33:36 You may have a supervisor or a colleague who's comfortable with doing crazy late emails. Or they have a comfortable working late nights and that works for them, that works on their lifestyle. There's no judgment here. If that works for you, that works for you. But you have to ask yourself, does this work for me? Do I truly believe it works for me? Or do I feel the pressure to think it works for me? Right? Do I want it to work for me? Can I put up with it? I can put up with it for a couple months? Can I put up with it for a year that turns into this? So I think the question is, and what I'm learning in my professional career is I have to stop and ask myself that and make it a priority because everyone else's priorities are right, are, are by definition and be their priorities.
Sayeed 00:34:12 But it's like in the social services sector, right? And the needs of survivors are incredibly important, abd will continue to be, oftentimes our resources, you know, if most of the time, if not all the time, are limited. So that needs always at the forefront. So you have to get comfortable with making your needs at some point come to the forefront as well. And I think that's the advice or kind of the guidance I can offer to people. Become comfortable thinking about your needs, thinking about your boundaries, and figuring out a way to verbalize and vocalize them. And regularly check in with yourself, right? Because if this is a good fit, it's a good fit. And if it's not, you get to ask and decide for yourself how long that works for you. If you wanna shift that in the org or if you want to find somewhere else that has organizational culture that works for you.
Rosy 00:34:58 Yeah. and you schedule it, right? So like I think we talked about when you're in these cultures, it sucks you. And so what if you do like a seasonal, every season change, I check in with how I'm feeling about my job. Or like those things like when the new holiday changes come up at the store and now they have Halloween stuff, so they're like, oh, it's about that time for me. 'cause I think then if you do a ritual like that, it makes it easier and it's an outside thing. When school supplies come out, I'm gonna do this good tip, or like, when the holidays start. But how are you because these cultures suck you in and part of the reason we stay in it is because it's power control. It's hard to see it when you're in it and then it doesn't leave you time to actually make these spaces. So it really is radical to take time for yourself.
Sayeed 00:35:41 It's radical to go slow.
Rosy 00:35:43 It's radical to go slow. And then we're not, we haven't even mentioned setting boundaries. If you're working from home <laugh> when now like you're working from home.
Sayeed 00:35:51 Yeah. Yeah.
Rosy 00:35:52 And happening for so many people. So for those just real quick, leave your house, leave your place,
Sayeed 00:35:57 Go on a walk.
Rosy 00:35:58 Go on a walk. Work from somewhere else when you can, don't stay home even though you're burnt out and tired and just don't wanna get off the couch. Get off that couch and go outside. Even if it's a tiny little thing you do because all your, your boundaries are all kinds of blurred when you work from home.
Sayeed 00:36:17 Absolutely. And if you have the space and, and the opportunity if you can have a dedicated little workspace that's separate from where you sleep, again, that may not be the option for everybody. But if you have that for me, it's worth it to I eat up a little bit of my living room just to have that. Just because for me, it's a mental thing. I can't wake up and the first thing I see is a computer. I'm sorry. Like, if possible. And to your point around the other thing is like a walk or some dedicated time outside, a lap around the corner helps, sometimes just opening the windows or getting that fresh air or like that, you know, it's harder in the winter. I think winter in Chicago is like the toughest to work from home.
Sayeed 00:36:55 But then creating for me, the support network. So it's like me and my friends, if we work hybrid or whatever combination, like especially the ones that like Hail Mary, if you live alone <laugh>, like you need the little connection or your family. Like I, you know, I always have this thing of like, I can't go a whole day where like all of my conversations were just around like what other needs are. And, no tea no shade, love you know, my family and work is very important to me. But oftentimes the phone calls from both of them are just about others' needs <laugh>. So I really appreciate my friends when they're actually asking me what I need and like, what are those? So like setting those times in particularly when the weather's harsher is really key. Because you just don't wanna fall into that mindset of like just like work, work, work. And you're not getting any engagement or, or finding time to nourish yourself.
Rosy 00:37:42 Yeah. And like co-work with people when you can. As a therapist, I can't really do that a lot but if you're supervising a group of therapists, give them an admin day. Give them an admin day all in one day. So that way they can have a day with no clients and they can go to a coffee shop or they can go somewhere else. I think that's really helpful. Um, and if you're stuck at home, like most of the time I am in my corner of my bedroom, little start opening rituals and closing rituals for the day can be helpful if they're with sun. So like, I try to, I don't do it consistently, but I, when I've done it, I see the difference. I light my little candle. And it's, that's the ritual. I light my candle and I'm starting my session.
Rosy 00:38:20 I change the lighting and I'm starting my sessions. And then at the end I blow out my candle and I change the lighting and I get up and maybe I go for a little walk or I stretch and like that's the ending. And I think the sense of the smell is like, oh, when the smell is on, you're at work and the smell's gone. It creates some sort of a boundary. I'm just reaching. Because it's hard. Like you have to get creative. And I think that's what I'm trying to say is like, there's a lot of different ways to set boundaries for yourself for work and home and at work and outside of work. And sometimes you have to be creative. It's not just about saying yes or no. It's absolutely, it's more complex than that.
Sayeed 00:38:53 And I think with that, the creativity means everybody's definition and version is gonna look different. And that's okay. That's actually a good thing. And so I think that's about spending time with maybe a lot of us in this work. We haven't always been taught that our needs are, what's important is always at the forefront. So it may just take a little bit of reflection time. I know for me it certainly has and I'm still doing it. So just sitting with, you know, as an exercise, sitting down and taking five minutes and be like, actually what are some practices, um, that I'm engaging or could be engaging that might help create a sense of structure, routine or a boundary that will make my work more manageable or feel that I can nourish. You know? And so I would leave that as sort imparting advice or guidance to our listeners today.
Sayeed 00:39:39 Like take some time, do it, maybe you already do it regularly, maybe you are wanting to do it more, take this as an invitation to just do a little bit of a bookmark and checkpoint and like what are some of my boundaries? Right? And I think that things that you just gave Rosy are giving me some ideas about my home office and like doing some– i used to do my incense and now I'm actually, I want to go get me a little new pack. But I'm also thinking about like how I might change the energy and, and the design of my work office and just open up the space. But anyway, I won't get into that. I'm gonna let y'all think <laugh>
Rosy 00:40:13 Yeah. Open to change like you're saying. So like you are the expert in you. Yeah. But try new things and then reflect. Like, did that work? Did it not work? And I think that could be hard for a lot of us to shift and change, but you're not gonna discover new ways to take care of yourself unless you try new things. Like right now you're like, well I heard that now I'm thinking I wanna do this and this and that. Yeah. And that, that might be what you need is just a change period. And that change itself could give you some energy and some excitement. And discover a new part of yourself that likes this or that, you know. We keep doing the same thing or just doing what other people do or they tell you to do only that's not the answer. It's about changing it up and you discovering 'cause you are the one who's gonna know. You for yourself. No one's gonna be able to tell you the perfect thing that's gonna work just for you.
Sayeed 00:40:59 Absolutely. Right. It's not all one size fits all in that regard.
Rosy 00:41:01 Nope. And there's so many, so many possibilities.
Sayeed 00:41:03 So many. So always a pleasure to speak, to share, to listen. I feel like I always get to, to learn a lot with Rosy. So I'm very thankful for that. And I hope that this episode has given you guys some= time to reflect and, and learn some tangible skills and tools around boundaries and energy management because it is so key in the work that we do. But also I think this is what makes the work, what I hope makes this work more sustainable. And hopefully more, there's more longevity with it. So with that, I do want to pass it off, talking about our creativity and our routines and our different things to invite Rosy for a little grounding session or breather, however we want to do it. Whatever you're thinking, whatever kind of gifting you'd like to give with us. And that's how we'll close out the episode, if that sounds good.
Rosy 00:41:56 Thanks Sayeed, we're gonna get started, but before we do, I just wanna thank you for, you know, always being such a, a warm invitation to allowing me to be myself. And it's always so helpful also. And I learn from you so much and just, I appreciate being around you. 'cause I do feel like I can be open and vulnerable.
Sayeed 00:42:13 I feel that way with you. Aw, thank you.
Rosy 00:42:15 Alright. Okay, here we go. Well find a comfortable position, whatever that might mean for you. Close your eyes if you can. If you can't, just focus where you need to. Now place one hand over your chest and the other hand on your belly. And I'm just gonna ask you to observe, observe the natural rhythm of your breath without changing it. Feel the hand on your chest. Feel the hand on your belly move as you inhale and as you exhale. With each inhale, feel your belly, your chest rise. And with each exhale, release any stress, tightness or worriness that you may be holding onto. Take a few more breaths in at your natural rhythm and out, focusing on the physical sensation of the air entering and leaving your body. Breathing in, breathing out. And when you're ready, you can start wiggling your fingers and toes and gently bringing your attention back to the present room and the sensations around you, opening your eyes. Thank you so much to everyone who listened and hung out with us
Sayeed 00:43:58 <laugh>. Thank you guys. Take care for the rest of the day.
Rosy 00:44:02 Bye.