Dear Rosy Episode 3
Rosy 00:00:01 Hello Hello.
Rosy 00:00:03 Hi everybody. Good afternoon or good morning, or maybe good evening.
Rosy 00:00:07 Also, so you know it's afternoon when we are recording. Hey, Sayeed. It's Rosy
Sayeed 00:00:15 Hi y'all. Dear Rosie. Hey. And it's me. Sayeed <laugh>. Can you tell? Alright, we gotta we go fix that. Can you tell it's been a day?
Rosy 00:00:23 It's been a week and it's what, Tuesday for us? And you know, we do our little debriefs before we start recording and, and it brings up some stuff for us too, which is good. 'cause it's usually the stuff that we want to talk about. <laugh>.
Sayeed 00:00:37 I feel like we started doing it where we're like, wait, I literally didn't look at the episode prompt, and I'm like, now I'm already addressing the issues already into it. <laugh>.
Rosy 00:00:44 It's like, we are ready. Well, just a reminder, um, my name is Rosie Magana. I'm a licensed clinical professional counselor and founder of Adelante Counseling and Wellness. I have about a little over 15 years of experience working with organizations and nonprofits, with a trauma-informed social justice lens, organizational health focus to support organizations to create healthier environments for their employees. And I also provide individual therapy and a few other things, but I think that's good for now.
Sayeed 00:01:15 I'm like, just a couple. Nothing too much <laugh> No. Hii y'all. I'm Sayeed Sanchez. I've been serving for three years now as the advocacy manager for Mujeres Latinas En Accion. I work on our advocacy and policy work, focusing on immigrant justice, economic justice, um, access to healthcare and confronting gender-based violence. And I'm really thankful and grateful to be here with y'all.
Rosy 00:01:38 Yeah. So we're recording our Episode Four of Dear Rosy Hey Sayeed. A podcast we're hoping can reach a few people who are looking to be seen and supported, more specifically in the nonprofit social services realm, supporting sexual assault survivors, trauma survivors. And just talking a little bit about things that come up at work and how to take care of ourselves and also advocate for ourselves. So today's title is Unwellness As Normal: The Crisis Culture of Nonprofits. I think that's a really very important theme all the time, but I don't know, maybe I always say this, right now it just makes even more sense. We've been starting out our, podcast by trying to pick a question that we ask each other and we both answer. It's my turn to pick the question so we can, you know, get, you get to, to know us a little bit more. So today's question that I chose is when someone asks, how are you, how often do you answer truthfully?
Sayeed 00:02:38 Ooh, that's a good one. And I mean, like, when you get into truthfully, you're really thinking, right, like, how are you, what level? For me, it definitely depends on the relationship that I have with the person. I feel how comfortable I am will influence, you know, to the degree that I am. I'm more transparent or vulnerable. I feel like I'm trying to, in general with more people, just be more upfront or outward when they ask. 'cause you know, if they ask, I wanna presume they care and it's important. But yeah, when you ask the how often part, uh, I will say recently and in when, I mean recently, I mean, this summer I've been a lot more honest. This summer's been challenging for me for various reasons and challenging for like a lot of people in the world for many reasons.
Sayeed 00:03:25 So I feel like it's, for me, it's been a markedly heavier one. So I've been trying to practice being a little bit upfront where I'm like, you know, it's actually been hard and it's been hard to feel the good summer vibes. And so I've been honest, not 'cause I want to be a downer or anything, but because I wanna be truthful with people. And that is something I'm happy I've been a little bit more often, just honest about where I am at. So I would say recently a lot more, um, beforehand, especially with people maybe I'm not, know as well or as comfortable, it takes me a little bit, um, to open up. And so I might just be like, you know, I'm okay, I'm fine, but Imight not be answering as truthfully as I could. Um, but how about you Rosy? When someone asks you how are you, how often do you answer truthfully?
Rosy 00:04:09 I definitely appreciate your answer. And like, how specifically recently that you've been more genuine. 'cause that really speaks to how, you know, you're, you're wanting to validate and be genuine to how you're feeling. We are in Chicago, in the Midwest people ask how are you a lot <laugh> very frequently. And they usually don't wanna know the answer, to be honest. That's how it feels. And I think they don't wanna, usually they don't. Because when I have been more honest, people look at you kinda weird sometimes, right? Random. But I think, yeah, because I think random people do ask, and I, and sometimes I'm not super honest to share or be genuine sometimes I’m honest to make them reflect what you're asking of me. Like, don't ask me how I am if you don't really care. Like, so I didn't start even recognizing that I needed to change, asking that as often until I became a therapist working in counseling services that had a really long hallway.
Rosy 00:05:01 And that really long hallway, I would greet my client at the waiting room and then right away I'd find myself saying, how are you? And like, you can't do that! Session has not started. We have a walk to go. Right. And I started realizing how much I use, “how are you” as “hi” and how I needed to change that. That's not the question. The question is how often I think I've been most genuine this year too, Sayeed. I have found myself several times this year, say someone asked me, how are you? And me being like, fine. I'd be like, uh, that's a lie <laugh>. And you like, and it doesn't mean I have to like —
Sayeed 00:05:35 trauma bond right in that moment.
Rosy: No. But you could be a little more honest or open about where you're really at feeling that day or something.
Rosy 00:05:42 Exactly. And also like, because I know people aren't doing well and to just say fine, I feel like sometimes it's dismissive and I want to show like that's a lie. Like, I wanna be real. I hear people in sessions a lot talk about like, everyone else is doing fine except for me. And like, that's not true. So I don't wanna perpetuate that. And I don't need to trauma bond. I don't need to say my trauma narrative, but I could be like, ugh. It's like we said at the beginning of stuff, it <laugh> it's been a week, right? Like I can be like, I'm not fine. Like, it's been kind of hard or it's been tough and that's enough. I kind of wanna normalize reflecting, what are you asking people?
Rosy 00:06:20 And it's okay to be real because usually people are running around with a narrative of you that probably isn't true. And sometimes it makes them feel worse about themselves. But just saying like, oh, it's kind of tough or it's been busy or it's been heavy, or I'm tired. Or things like that I think are okay. But I still do think that most of the time I still say fine. Probably more than not, but definitely more often now I say something like, or make a face. Ugh. You know? <laugh>.
Sayeed 00:06:52 I love a face. I love a face because there's so many ways to communicate and sometimes your body, the body language itself. Because yeah, we'll say, I'll be like, I'm fine and I'll have my body language like my arms crossed or looking the other way. Like clearly I'm not fine on the zoom, but I'm just trying to get done with it.
Rosy 00:07:07 Yeah or also like, why are we saying fine if we're on a zoom to talk about loss of funding or letting people go. And then your response is like, I'm fine. Clearly you are not.
Sayeed 00:07:17 Well maybe you shouldn't be in the response to some of these things.
Rosy 00:07:20 You shouldn't be.
Sayeed 00:07:20 Right. But I wanna get into the reasons. And I feel like it's such a wonderful check in question that ties into this. Like, why do we feel the pressure in nonprofit world and conditioning, et cetera to perform this wellness or to say that we're fine when we're really not. Or to mask or to hide. You know, I guess I'm throwing out a lot of words there, but I feel like it's such a great introduction question. Because it gets into it naturally of just like, yeah, what are these pressures we're dealing with? And what's like very, at least feels to me, specific to nonprofits about the culture of trying to perform niceness or wellness?
Rosy 00:07:55 Oh, perform niceness and wellness and the normalization of that like crisis is normal. Yeah. Like you signed up for it, right? Yeah.
Sayeed 00:08:03 Yeah.
Rosy 00:08:04 <laugh>, You signed up for this so you don't get to actually have feelings about it. Which is crazy 'cause we get to have feelings all the time.
Sayeed 00:08:10 I mean, I mean the irony is like you're working with counselors and therapists. Yeah. The whole job is letting other people know. You get to have feelings about this.
Rosy 00:08:16 <laugh> And sometimes it's like, we're fine. But then I'm also gonna like over, I'm gonna give you 500 things to do and deadlines next week too. So I'm saying one thing too of like, we're all fine and not acknowledging the heaviness, the crisis response we're having to people having to let people go or having to not get a promotion or having not, not to get the raise we've been wanting. Or getting underpaid and we're normalizing that. And also responding to not having the funding or people changing what is required of you last minute. People changing expectations last minute of what report you were supposed to give or when you were supposed to spend the money. And, and that all creates that crisis culture. Right. If you're changing what's expected of you and when I mean changing, not like, oh, you get an extra three months to do what we told you to do. No, it's usually like, oh, you, you thought this was due in two months. Oh, it's the first, it's due like in two weeks, two, three weeks
Sayeed 00:09:18 On half the budget. <laugh>.
Rosy 00:09:19 Yeah. <laugh>. So of course it's crisis response. Right? Yeah. And a lot of us, if we are people who come hold certain identities and have some experience with surviving or our survivors, um, we are usually really good at it too.
Sayeed 00:09:36 Which just like, it's so hard. I appreciate you saying that and just starting it off in that way because it is so true. And I think that's one of the, going back, for me, the process of unlearning and I still am, but like I'm in a certain in myself because of the external pressures, the way I've been conditioned and the lack of resources, I've learned and become good at sort of making the most of less.
Rosy probably great <laugh>.
Sayeed: Thank you. Well, sometimes no, but it's to say it's almost, you know, the crazy, the wild part for me I should say is that I almost got used to it, you know, where I'm like, I myself had normalized it because I'm like, I know what it's like, I know what it's like to see my parents work with nothing. I know what it's like to see my community work with nothing. I'm a part of it. So then when I get to this, this scarcity and the crisis at an org or into a sector, I'm like, oh, well yeah, this is just being an adult or this is just how it is. And we unfortunately contribute to the normalization of that.
Rosy 00:10:29 Yeah. It's just normal. It's what it's, I mean, my life's always been like this, so like why can't I just keep doing it? Yeah. And then there's also the adrenaline rush of succeeding, right? Yeah. Like, so that's true. I got this one week to write this whole thing, or I got one week to spend this much money, or I have two weeks to put together this workshop and well, I'm not sleeping and I have this adrenaline, but I could do it. It almost feels like a challenge. Like, can you do it? And it's like, watch me, right? Like watch me do it and then you do it and, and, and you succeed. And it makes you feel like it was okay to do that. Well 'cause you're good at it, so you're gonna be able to succeed at it. But just because you can do it
Sayeed 00:11:06 Should you.
Rosy 00:11:07 Exactly. Doesn't it?
Sayeed 00:11:08 Is it good for you?
Rosy 00:11:09 Exactly. Yeah. And it's, and for sure it's not sustainable.
Sayeed 00:11:12 No. Nope. Not at all. Not at all. Thank you so much. And I think, I'm sure people listening can relate to that and understand that because we are all at some point, right, gonna have to deal with some type of instability of funding or turnover of staff or other things. But I think for me it's, well, let's not normalize that, right? Or let's not just take what's really important to me is we don't take that for granted or just assume that's the way things are. And I'll say this, I do feel as a value stance if I come to work in an organization that addresses gender based violence harm, right? And the value that we move is that we never blame the survivor and we should never, you know, it's never on them. I do have to look at a sector and really think about, you know, what are some of the lasting or harmful things we may be internalized or externalize, that we keep and remain. That puts, you know, a lot of our direct service providers in this context, right? Where it's like, oh, well that's what comes with it. Or you sort of, you chose it, you signed up to work for it, you're doing it for passion, not money. It's because you care. You know? So there are some parallels I want to draw. We don't have to get, we can get into it maybe, but I think that's important. Does that make sense?
Rosy 00:12:22 Yes. It's very, very important. If we are not taking care of ourselves and healing harmful patterns of harm, which is like surviving or crisis and, and only knowing this pattern of, of living or the pattern of responding to abuse. And we continue to just act in that way and we're not healing it, we're gonna repeat it. Absolutly.. And what I'm also hearing you say is, how are we hurting each other in this system by normalizing the crisis? Right? That's why it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable because as a human being who needs support, sleep, <laugh>, um, basic stuff like that —
Sayeed 00:12:59 Crazy
Rosy 00:13:00 Wild concepts, you know, it's gonna give somewhere. And maybe it's not giving out work. Maybe you did succeed and got all that work done, right? In those two weeks. But how often did you see your child? How often did you see your partner? How often did you see your best friend? When was the last time you hung out with your friends or your parent or your loved ones? Or are you feeling fulfilled in other parts of your life?
Rosy 00:13:22 Or do you even have a chance to ask yourself because you're just stuck in this crisis? React, react, react. Yeah. And, and that's not the way to, to truly succeed and thrive. Right. And that's not how your organization is gonna thrive either.
Sayeed 00:13:36 No, no. And tying it back to some of the earlier episodes and things we've talked about, burnout, this is, again, another recipe for burnout. So if we have that normalization of wellness, or we're sort of pushing whether implicitly or explicitly for staff to perform wellness for the sake of, you know, performance or, or pretending, whatever, like, that's still a recipe for burnout or a recipe for folks not feeling very fulfilled. And the last thing I want, you know, to happen folks, is you may end up leaving the work or the org and work and feeling disillusioned. You know, you came in with this vision, you came in with all this, and that's the greatest irony is like a lot of times, you know, folks come into this work and they're here to help other folks shift from, you know, from crisis to wellness,
Sayeed 00:14:21 and they themselves end up leaving very unwell because of the culture and the systems that set up are, are very, encourage a lot of unwell behavior and don't set up people to succeed. Right? We all hit a point whether, you know, it's gonna be a year, a couple months, a week, whatever time period. But we're humans. We cannot just produce, produce, produce or run on fumes and, and chase the next thing. So I appreciate you bringing that. And I would love to know, from your perspective as a mental health professional and clinician, what are some of the things that you can help folks to see? Like if this unwellness or normalization of wellness is starting to impact them, right? Because it probably creeps up, but we don't even realize — I dont know about you but I get tunnel vision. But what are some of the telltale signs for folks if, you know, the culture of unwellness is starting to impact them?
Rosy 00:15:14 So as an, as an individual, it's hard to tell because if we're used to it it actually sometimes feels comfortable. Right? It's harder for us when things are slow. So even pace, right? If your pace is always go, go, go, go and you're trying to make things work all the time, you're gonna try to make it, that's one of my phrases that is usually a check-in. If you're trying to make something work, it probably doesn't really work.
Sayeed 00:15:44 Yeah.
Rosy 00:15:45 But you know, you're so good at making everything work. I've done that as a child too, and it's something that I've really had to learn how to step away from and figure out how to slow down and do my own healing too, to do that. I remember my dad would say, “No se puede hacer todo” Right? No, you can't do everything. And I would literally be like, yes, you can <laugh>, yes, you can watch me, watch me. And now it's like, no, Nope.
Sayeed 00:16:10 Nor should you.
Rosy 00:16:11 Yeah. Like I could, I could do everything. I could finish that work you're telling me to do by tomorrow. But I don't think it's healthy for me. Yeah. Signs, sleep, eating, seeing people you care about. And then irritability,
Rosy 00:16:30 I knew that I was close to burnout or fresh not doing too well when I yell at people more on my commute, driving. I don't have a community more, but when I did, if I was yelling at everybody in their cars, like from my car, they couldn't hear me. But, you know, I do not confront people that way. But I would be yelling to myself, oh, what is that car doing? I'm like, oh, I need a break. Or what's going on? I need to reflect on how am I not taking care of myself? Yeah. And how much of it is, is it me at home or is it at work? And starting to say no. And if it is a thing, I would say also look at your job responsibilities and duties. And I think you should do that regularly.
Sayeed 00:17:13 Yes. Oh my gosh, please. Pro tip!
Rosy 00:17:16 We forget what we were hired to do. And we're also usually very passionate about the helping fields, aligns with our values, we want to help, we wanna support, if you're lucky to, you really like the people you work with too.
Rosy 00:17:32 We wanna help them. And we start taking on way too many things and a little bit here and there. Not terrible, but let's really like reassess, reflect what are your jobs responsibilities? Where do you feel pulled, where did you feel pulled to do something or pressured? And also have a conversation with your boss about it, like assessing, can I get paid more for this? I'm gonna help this time, but maybe next time we should talk about how this is gonna be too much for me or on my plate. And a good supervisor will also be doing that with you and they wanna support you. And I wanna believe that they may get wrapped up in that culture. Because it's the culture that makes it hard for everyone to see. And it's scary if you're the only one who's calling it out. So I would encourage people to talk to your peers. And see if they're having similar experiences. You know, because you'll be stronger as a community opposed just you by yourself.
Sayeed 00:18:27 And address it as a team meeting and have instances or documents, however you want to go. But just to add onto that, I think that's because it's so rare, you aren't gonna be the only person feeling that way. And if you do talk about it and feel comfortable with your colleagues, you guys can talk about how to frame that to your particular supervisor or department, your program, and see where you can go from there. But I think it shouldn't just as healing, right, shouldn't fall on one person, collective healing or collective addressing of an issue should not fall on one person either. So if I can give that advice, I would definitely encourage it. And that's something that has been successful for me. And the other thing is consistency is key. And this for me, like it, I don't want to say, I guess for lack of a better word, it sucks, but it's like a thing of like, when you're addressing culture and institutions, right? It does shift, you know, at least for me, slower than I'd like <laugh>. So it's like consistency, you know, so those are reminders. And so I think for me, a good lesson was like, actually I addressed this with my supervisor and my supervisor was super receptive. It just turned out you didn't realize all of the things that was on my plate. Because it was so used to me just like saying yes.
Rosy 00:19:36 Because they’re part of that culture too, they’re doing a lot as well.
Sayeed 00:19:37 Exactly. So then just having the reminders of like, hey, remember when we discussed this? Or like, can I get some additional time? Or I'll need some, I can do this, but I'll need some additional support. That's the other thing I learned. You don't have to say yes to everything as a straight fact and not make your own request with it. Maybe you do get assigned another task, but if you have to do that, you ask for additional support or additional time, et cetera.
Rosy 00:19:59 Yeah. And I do think that's a very individual decision of how you're navigating that and checking with yourself and getting support. Yeah. A hundred percent. And yeah. And you have to have this conversation. We can't assume that our supervisor or director, whoever is aware all the time of everything we're doing because they also are stretched thin. I also wanna normalize how normalized this is and how radical it is to push against this. Because the system that social services, nonprofits work in is a system that is built on sort of this like crisis culture model and overworking model. So like, it's you and your job and your department and your program is just, you know, a little system in a micro system and a bigger system. Bigger system, bigger system, bigger system. And the big system is already a culture of crisis. So in order to do this, what we're asking of you and advocating what you're describing, it is radical to push against. I do want to put that out there. Like, I think it is very much normalized to overwork in nonprofits. I think it's very normalized to be in crisis. Even laugh about it and joke mm-hmm But it's serious <laugh>.
Sayeed 00:21:09 Oh yeah.
Rosy 00:21:10 We laugh, but no, y'all like no, no. We deserve better. We all deserve better <laugh>. Our clients deserve better. So we deserve better if we wanna be able to stick around. When I first started in the field and being a therapist for sexual assault survivors, I remember, school telling us, okay, if you go into this, the expectancy of you staying at this kind of a nonprofit job is like four to five years. Because on average, that's how long you can sustain that level of trauma you're dealing with. And then also, I think it's systemic then, right?
Sayeed 00:21:47 That what I was gonna say. So why hasn't anyone addressed that or looked into that? Hey, what are the policies of things like what's creating, because, inanother sector, right? Like that type of turnover is, is wild, is unacceptable. So it's like, wait, wait, wait. You, you just tell people who are interested in this. Like, oh yeah. And you'll probably just be in this for four or five years.
Rosy 00:22:08 It's gonna burn you out in five years. Do you still want it? And all of us were like, yeah, we're starting to do this. And almost like it's an individual issue. Not like, it's just still the way it is.
Sayeed 00:22:17 That's the whole thing. And I think it's so the implicit, well you signed up for this. You know, they may not actually say they, maybe they will. They're bold. They say, we told you quiet part out loud, we told you. Or you're not in it for the money. You're not all these variations. And it's like, okay. But also, you know, wild radical concepts, I can take care of others and be cared for myself as well. Right. Or have an organization that supports and cares for me. Right. So that's the thing. I think of the rejecting this idea or the normalization of that unwellness and the normalization of the crisis response is actually there's more, there should be more systematic support. And there should be more addressing of this what is a systemic issue and, and sort of treatment of mental health professionals.
Rosy 00:22:57 Because it isn't working. Because we shouldn't be having high turnover. Not all organizations do. Right. But in general, we wouldn't have to train more. We wouldn't have as many of the issues. Right? And we keep saying unwellness, but let's be honest, how are we creating a culture of harm
Sayeed 00:23:15 Yeah.
Rosy 00:23:16 for services that are supposed to help people.
Sayeed 00:23:21 That's always the greatest irony to me. We do crisis intervention and prevention work, you know, on gender-based violence and harm, physical, mental, emotional harm. Right? And then it's like, wait, but we're putting our direct service providers through so much harm by not addressing this, not providing that support and, and sort of just saying like, well if you really care it's something you're willing, it's like this, you know, the noble badge, you know, I don't know if it's too strong, but it's like they want to create you to be a martyr. Like you came in to do this, right?
Rosy 00:23:53 Yes. And if you're not, then you’re bad.
Sayeed 00:23:54 Exactly. Or if you're the person who says that, oh, you're uppity, or you weren't really cut out for this work. You don’t care about the work, right?
Rosy 00:24:03 A way to be manipulative, emotionally harmful is to tell someone who came into this work,
Sayeed 00:24:11 Hella triggering!
Rosy 00:24:11 Yeah!
Sayeed 00:24:12 Like, so triggering. Like what?
Rosy 00:24:15 Oh my goodness.
Sayeed 00:24:16 The irony!
Rosy 00:24:17 And that’s why we talk about individual work is so important. Like, you really need to like work on your own stuff, know your triggers, know what your values is. And,of course you don't figure it all out. Right. It's an ongoing process. But really you want to focus on creating also a community that has those values. So then when you do enter spaces that are, um, normalizing all this, you are like, what's this? Does anybody else hear that <laugh>? What? I remember my therapist told me, it just seems like you have a sixth sense, right? Like, you're sitting in a room in a meeting and people are talking and you're just did they hear what they just said? They're gonna tell us that we have to… like, when?! When am I supposed to do that?<laugh>,
Sayeed 00:25:01 I have the worst poker face so you can tell me. And that's why I said that in my interviews I'm like, I'll be a really great advocate because I'm not scared to say it how it is. The other part about that is like, if I hear something I don't like, I will say it on my face. I might not say it out loud, but I'm also like, maybe we need to address that. Right? Or like, maybe I'm like moving with honesty and transparency is an important value to me. I think what we do have to learn, and I think what's more honest that doesn't always seem, because part of that, what I've learned the culture of crisis, the performance of wellness when we're really unwell seems to be like, it's about, to me it seems to be about pleasing like funders.
Sayeed 00:25:39 It's about making sure like our resources are here and sort of doing this, you know, performative, right? Sense of like wellness, family, et cetera, what you want that, you know, nonprofit language. But I think for myself, what's actually radical, more helpful is if we are honest and transparent with one another. And like we just admit, actually you guys, we haven't really figured out how to make this work a little bit more sustainable or like, it's very humbling, but this has been a sector wide issue. And a lot of people, you know, founded this with lots of love. And, also we are flawed beings. And sometimes we, you know, I've heard from people, elder generations have said, we didn't talk about boundaries. Really? That wasn't a thing. We didn't talk about it if you did care, you know what I mean?
Sayeed 00:26:22 So I feel like maybe what we need is more of a forum to have these conversations without the shame attached. Or maybe people can say, you know, I engaged in some harmful behaviors in the past in harmful cultures, but I don't have to be that way now and that doesn't make me a harmful person. Period. Or like, that's my only identity. Right? Like, we have all probably, if I would say we probably engaged in some harmful practices in our past, we've had full lives, right? It does not mean that you as a person are now just a perpetrator of harming. But I think there doesn't seem to be, we live in a culture, not just the sector, but society in the US is like binary. You're either good or you're bad, right? Or you've done harm, you've never done harm. You know, you're, you're the victim or you're this. But I'm like, I think things are a little bit more nuanced. And what if we need space to just have that nuance, you know,
Rosy 00:27:15 The vulnerability is what you're talking about, right? There’s always gonna be shame in the room, but how we name it, that it exists, or that I shamed, or how are we vulnerable to accept that we are imperfect people? And how do we create those compassionate spaces? Self-compassion and community compassion is the key to everything. Like being able to validate our experiences and then also like, admit that we are human and that we make mistakes and that includes hurting other people. And I think that's why it's also so hard, right? Because we go into this field because we want to help people of course. Because we care about community. So then sometimes we struggle to admit when we have caused harm. Beause that goes directly against, and like you were saying, all good, all bad. How do we challenge that culture too?
Rosy 00:27:58 You're talking about crisis culture, perfectionistic culture. Right? So important. And I think we're trying, I think everyone, not everyone, but there are people out there trying and it's, it's a difficult thing. But I definitely love you bringing this up. The not all good, all bad. I'm gonna make mistakes, we're socialized in this culture, like in that bigger system that does shame people, that does perpetuate crisis and unwellness. I have participated in it. I'm talking about how do we fix it? I've done it several times and I've done it to other people. How do we open our eyes to it and are open to also taking that feedback and working towards changing it. And that you named probably one of the hardest pieces, that vulnerability.
Sayeed 00:28:45 Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I appreciate you noting that. And I think that's something I've learned as a theme this year to name and, and how do you do that? Practice that in a professional context. How do you practice that in a context around, you know, supporting survivors of gender-based violence? While acknowledging that even if it's our best intentions, we may sometimes replicate that. That these behaviors that aren't super positive or we're performing wellness, but also we have the vulnerability to be like, actually I am probably gonna make some more mistakes, or I'm going to do that. I think that's, for me, again, I take it for granted, but I'm very thankful. I have a team I can trust and a supervisor that I can talk to about these things. And I mean, neither of us are perfect and neither is my team, but we are aligned on our values.
Sayeed 00:29:28 And I do feel like if it's something where I can make this, you know, hey, I felt a little overwhelmed with what was put on my plate or slash I would've, you know, loved a little bit more support. Or I'll ask questions like, you know, what can I do? Or what could I have done differently? What would you recommend? And I'm honest with that. I even practiced it this morning for our meeting I'm like, I actually need some of your advice and your guidance. I know you're running around a lot, but can I just get this? Because I am nervous to say or do the wrong thing. It's not clear to me what would be right, what would you do in this? And that was a moment to get some support. And I actually did receive it. And that was helpful. And I just practiced grace too.
Sayeed 00:30:02 And I'm like, I might make mistakes and if I do, I'm gonna own them up and I'm gonna learn from them. And we go from there. But I would much rather have that than a culture of, you know, hyper perfectionism, hyper individualism. We can't ask anybody for help. And then just like performance of this, like, oh yeah, I'm all fine. I'm all good. But really, like, you're just a bundle of nerves inside. Or like, that's how I have been before and that's, I've become, I had become accustomed to operating in that procedure. So now unlearning that conditioning has been a challenge.
Rosy 00:30:31 Yeah. And that's something you work out on your own. Shout out to you for communicating, but shout out to your supervisor for creating that space and listening. So it let you know, oh, you can do this here. Oh, you are asking, I'm gonna listen, even though I'm super busy all the time. I hear you saying this is something you need. And, and that's what we shout out to all supervisors and directors who are doing that right now to CEOs, to anyone in leadership. Who is already owning their stuff. And also listening to their staff. And when they cannot provide that time for them, tell them I just can't, I'm really sorry. And like owning that I overbooked myself. This is something I need to work on is that I'm not here when you're asked, I can see that you've asked me three times this week to sit down with you and I haven't.
Rosy 00:31:14 And I think that's times people don't understand how powerful that is. Even saying that you messed up, I didn't do it can help create the culture of you'll come again. Right. But if I'm ignoring you or making you feel bad for you don't know how to do this already. I already went over this with you. You should be on your own by now. Like, these are all statements that we think are growing people or letting them sink or swim on their own. But really we're not listening to what their needs are. And there are times to hold people accountable because maybe they aren't able to do their position. But that's very different than what we are talking about right now. So I really think leadership and people in leadership need to take responsibility for this because they're the ones who hold the power, right?
Rosy 00:32:00 They hold the power in this relationship. If you come, you're not gonna keep coming to me if your boss seems mad because you need your job. You're gonna try to figure it out on your own, which is gonna be even more stressful. Or you're gonna talk, you're gonna be upset about it and tell someone how upset you are. And now we're starting to like have this not great culture, cultural tension either. I do think depending on your background, we need to really pay attention to who we are promoting as managing other people. And do they have the training necessary to be doing that position related and different. As a therapist, I trained in clinical counseling, I never got a business degree or taught, this is how you do billing if you wanna do a practice on your own. We did have to do a training, one training on supervision, one. But nothing on management. I did hospitality management before going into therapy. And that's how I have a lot of my management and organizational health experience. But when you go to school for social services, depending on your program,
Sayeed 00:33:01 They don't actually provide a lot of that operational resources <laugh>
Rosy 00:33:05 Operational, or like how to supervise, accountability. So what are you doing in your organization to make sure that when you're promoting, you're not just like, oh, they’re such a great therapist, or they're such a great educator for workshops or advocating really think, okay, I think you can manage, but let's talk about this training that, you know, and now we have so many things that we could do online too. How are you preparing people to manage is a serious question.
Sayeed 00:33:35 That's such a good point. I appreciate you bringing that up. Because I think that goes in direct to address crisis mode. I think part of those elements is making sure staff actually have the resources and supports to succeed. And I think that includes leadership and promotion, internal promotions, et cetera. Where you, as you sort of just noted Rosy, right? Like someone can have the program service delivery skills, right? But perhaps some of the management or operational or other aspects that now if they're going to be a director or supervisor, right, associated with they may need some upskilling. Right. I think this's a humbling part, right? I don't think there's one perfect person in the world who has, you know, 10 outta 10 for every, every skill, right? And so I think there's that, that humbling base, but everybody brings something new.
Sayeed 00:34:21 And I think everybody has our own natural strengths and inclinations, things we like, but I also, we all have the capacity to learn. And I think that's the beauty of it, I, at least to me as a value is like a lifelong learner. We always have that. And what would it be like to shift, right? Instead of looking at skills and deficits, this deficit mindset, oh, you don't have this, we can't get you there, you da, da da, da. Thinking of it as an opportunity to grow or the opportunity, right? We see them in performance assessments and things like that. And I appreciate those and I think they're a great starter base. And I think part of addressing the operational crisis mode means how do we actually now provide that support to it? We've identified opportunities for growth. Where as an organization, are you providing the professional development, the resources, the time.
Sayeed 00:35:07 It's great to talk about, but I'm always asking myself like, yeah, I'd love to do this. Or, oh, this, this PD. I'm like, when do I have the time? I have four roles or all this responsibility. So to me, it goes hand in hand, right? It's hard to tell program staff, right? Like, here are all these opportunities and things, but they have so much on their plate. So it's like, when are they gonna have the time and the support to get it, it's very individualistic. Oh, you go do this on your own thing. And it's like, well, but where's the support from the org or the system, the sector to get there?
Rosy 00:35:40 I'm so glad you mentioned the time thing. Beause that goes right into that crisis thing, right? When we have crisis, we're responding, reacting quickly, right? So in order to make intentional decisions that are about PD, developing people, preparing people appropriately, we need to get out of that crisis mode. Because as long as we're in crisis mode, then yeah, you're awesome, everybody. You do great work. PUh, people respect you, you communicate great. I'm gonna make you a supervisor. You might do very well at first because you're good at, you know, these very big things, but there might be other things that you need more support in. But I'm not thinking that. I'm like, I need a supervisor. You're awesome. You've been here this long, you're wanting this. Let me just, and I have to do it fast. Because they need a supervisor now <laugh> instead of being like, okay.
Rosy 00:36:26 And because everyone's overworked. Right. So like the whole system is working in this crisis manner. And it's hard to figure out when do I stop and where can I afford to slow down? And the reality is probably nowhere. But you still have to do it because we're harming each other. And it's not sustainable in the long term. So instead of thinking like impulsively this week or tomorrow, we really need to think long term. And to do that, we need to slow down. And try our best to work outside of crisis mode. In a bigger system that works in crisis mode.
Sayeed 00:37:06 Thank you. I mean, snaps like slowness. Slowness for sure. And I think that goes hand in hand with trying to be as planful and as intentional as possible. Now I know, again, and to your point earlier in this episode, we are, you know, we are going against, we're counterculture at this point, right? So there are gonna be things that, I'll use the I, I feel that, and I note that when I try to address these things, right? There's some friction, there's some tension, there's some discomfort because there are people who are maybe looking at me, my colleagues or boss or other things, you know, people in the organization with great intentions, right? It's no shade. But they're like, wait, what's he doing? What are they doing? Like why are we switching it up? Or what, why can't you just get with the program? Or like, what's your issue
Rosy 00:37:52 Just do what everybody else is doing. Are you gonna be difficult?
Sayeed 00:37:53 Exactly. Exactly. So I think there is a little bit of that, you know, maybe more than a little bit. But that's a thing of noting, you know, I'm trying something different. I'm committed to doing this and I'll just offer this too to people. You know, how well is it working for you? Right? Like, yeah, maybe you are getting those grant deadlines, but at what expense? The expense of your mental, emotional, spiritual, physical health. All of the above. But it's because it's been normalized, you think this is what it means to do good work. To do good work is to burn myself out. And so I want to reject that culture. And actually, I think part of that comes in the way that we do with language too. And so it's small, but I think at least in the individual relationship management with coworkers is like, yeah, how did you rest? Right? Like, oh, did you eat, did you make time? Like, oh, that sounds super busy. Do you have time for lunch? I think I just meant that, just because I knew you had a super busy
Rosy 00:38:47 <laugh>, You did ask me, I think you're so sweet. Thanks for taking care of me a little.
Sayeed 00:38:49 Of course. No, I know how to be, but I'm, you know, I appreciated that
Rosy 00:38:54 Sayeed asked me when we were meeting too, we switched the time and asked, well, when are you going to eat? You know, I said I did. I ate, I had time to eat.
Sayeed 00:39:00 You had an earlier lunch. Because that's, I think for me, I was like I know that when you got clients, you got meetings and all that. Oftentimes you're doing that, you know, in the lunchtime. So you're working with people's schedules, right.
Rosy 00:39:13 But yeah, you're trying to create that culture of like this is important for me andyour health is important to me. And that's why you're showing it by asking.
Sayeed 00:39:21 Yep. Absolutely.
Rosy 00:39:22 And it didn't take long to ask.
Sayeed 00:39:23 I doesn't, you know, the the wild thing is it's actually just stopping and listening to your body or being like other things like the wild, you know, again, it's, it's wild because it's so simple, but so somehow so hard where I'm like, um, the sleep, right? The eating, the, like, just basic, you know, engagement with people outside of just like production or work, et cetera. Like all things that need to be well-rounded and healthy, but are easy. I'll use I, are easy for me to lose sight of things when I'm in that sort of what I like to call the hamster wheel, the crisis response mode. So I do think it's, that's still upstream, right? Like again, in this sector right now. We're still in that. But I do feel good that at least we seem to be in, you know, poco a poco, at least we having concepts of people kind of naming things like vicarious trauma and burnout and these kind of, and hopefully this resource in this episode to call attention to that. These are all things, at least to me, that shift that we're going towards the direction that we need to be. Obviously we still have a long ways to go, but like we are sort of trying to actualize or move towards where we want to be, where we do great work, we get paid and we also don't have to sacrifice ourselves doing it.
Rosy 00:40:36 Oh, those are big goals. Those are wonderful goals. <laugh>, I want all of that, right? And I wanna make decisions that align with that. Yes. Not that align with the bad culture, which is also what we hear, right? Is like, we know how it is. So let's just give up. No, no, no. We're not giving up. We're gonna still have some difficult conversations and why are we in crisis mode? No one is bleeding out <laugh> No one is bleeding out right now. And also who actually got through this like feeling crisis, responding so quickly and then got to work and all their tasks were done. They’re never done. There’s always work.
Sayeed 00:41:05 There will literally, there will always be emails, right? Like, just take, take the time off. Like you are entitled to it. And there will literally always be that work and that email.
Rosy 00:41:23 And I hate to be real. You're gonna leave and they're gonna figure it out.
Sayeed 00:41:27 That's the other part.
Rosy 00:41:28 You’re not the only person who could do that actually. Even though you feel that way. And even though right now you are the only person, the reality is how do you take care of yourself now so you're not having to just abruptly leave, which we, I'm sure you out there have had those stories that people have been abruptly leave because they're hospitalized because of some stress situation or because they weren't going to their doctor's visits. Right. And now they, everyone has to react and take care of it. And they did. And they do. Absolutely. How do we get a shift out of that?
Sayeed 00:41:58 I know. <laugh>, we just laughing because it's so on the nose, <laugh>.
Rosy 00:42:03 It makes me sad. You know, I'm, I'm really passionate about wanting to support people to create a life that when you wake up, you have something that you enjoy and that you're looking forward to. And, especially, you know, it could be sadness. There's awful things that are happening in this world and so many things out of our control. And sometimes we don't always have a choice where we're working, but sometimes we do, sometimes we forget when we do have a choice because we're used to not knowing we have one for so long. But we sometimes do. And I like to push that a little bit. And I just, you know, we all deserve to feel better and be cared for and healed.
Sayeed 00:42:44 Yes.
Rosy 00:42:45 We all deserve it. Every single person.
Sayeed 00:42:48 Thank you. And you can do that work and you can be cared for. You don't have to be spent, spent out, burnt out. In fact, I want us to shift the culture where we're actually thanking people for checking up on one another. Or we are looking at people, the rest that they get, et cetera. Instead of sometimes the, the productivity or the race to the bottom, I slept the least, or I submitted these things and all that. I'm like, okay, cool. Important. You've got your grants, you got your clients, you're seeing them. Maybe we're working on the wait list. Like that's real. It's important and we thank you for it. It's needed. And also like, how are you doing? How are you resting? How are you making sure there's gonna be, you are gonna be able to continue to do this work and not sacrifice yourself out of it. Because also at the other point of it, everyone you'll hit, if we do this unsustainable model, you'll hit burnout and you can't help anybody, yourself included.
Rosy 00:43:38 Yep and no one's gonna notice because we're usually so good at masking it. Yeah. So like, you really also need to advocate for yourself because just because everyone else thinks you're doing well doesn't mean you are.
Sayeed 00:43:50 Yes. And it's difficult, I'll name it in this culture. And like, again, if we think about our identities and our backgrounds, like we've, a lot of us have been taught not to advocate for ourselves, have been punished for it even, right. And, and that's really harmful. But we wanna do this work because we are also about here, about empowering survivors, making sure that they know that their voice matters, that their feelings matters, and so I think that also directly should parallel direct service providers that they're feeling listened to, heard too, and feel that they have an outlet to do this work without being, you know, burnt out or shut down when they bring Yeah. Bring attention to these issues. So I'm very thankful, Rosy, for, you know, the incredible work that you do for mujeres, for our org, but also the work that you're doing with your clients, with your private clients, and with Adelante, and this thing that you're able to offer in terms of counseling and consulting to address some of this.
Sayeed 00:44:46 Because I think this, you are part of that solution of like organizational, systemic wellness because you bring that expertise and you know what's going on in between us. And I feel like that's what's really missing sometimes, especially because we are not mainstream orgs, right? So if we come in with solutions that aren't really tailored to our communities or how we show up, they may be well intentioned, but they miss the mark. But I do think that you have, you bring that expertise. And so I'm very thankful for that. I always feel like in these episodes I get to break it down with you.
Rosy 00:45:16 I appreciate that. And it's this expertise that it's called, I listen to people. I just listen to people.
Sayeed 00:45:24 It's a skill. Yeah. You do it very well.
Rosy 00:45:26 I try to listen to people and hear themes and yeah, my brain works weird. I see the systemic in wthe who said what to who and what rule caused this.
Sayeed 00:45:35 I love it. No, yes. Literally.
Rosy 00:45:36 And I am grateful for you that you are out there speaking the truth and being genuine. And you know, we've gotten to know each other so much more in the last few weeks. And I am so grateful because you are part of my support. The part that reminds me I'm not crazy, right? Because regularly I'm in that culture too, and I tell myself, oh, this must be a me problem. I'm not working enough. I should be doing more. Why am I not doing this? I should be doing, I can't believe I've slept that much. And it's like, okay, where are my people to remind me that like, ugh, that's not it. That's not the life I want live.
Sayeed 00:46:12 Absolutely. And that you deserve more.
Rosy Yes. And without having to work for it. Just existing, you deserve it.
Sayeed 00:46:18 You don’t have to ask for it. You shouldn't have to ask for it. You don't have to beg or any of it. Yeah. Like you said, just for deserving and existing. I dream for a world where we no longer feel the pressure to have to perform or be grateful for, you know, just a little bit. Right?
Rosy: Yeah.
Sayeed: We come into this world deserving of beauty, of resources. There's enough to grow around and to share. And someone else's freedom from harm takes nothing away from mine. In fact, it makes me more free.
Rosy 00:46:47 Yes. Oh, we're ending on a <laugh>, on a lighter note, right?
Sayeed: Yeah.
Rosy On our hopes, our dreams. We've been ending on a little bit of a grounding. Is it okay if we move towards that?
Sayeed: I would love that.
Rosy 00:46:59 All right. I'm gonna lead us in a little grounding. So wherever you're at, in the car, they'll keep your eyes open, but you can still do this with us. And if you're somewhere comfy, you can close your eyes or just get a little comfy and take this pause. We're gonna breathe in together. Your nose, breathe out through your mouth slowly. Okay. Another breath, breath in, feeling the lungs expanding and breathing out. Feeling the sense of letting go. Breathing in, feeling the body, getting fuller and breathing out to feel the release of any tension. Go out with that breath. Breathe in, feeling alive and awake, and breathing out, feeling muscles relaxing. And one last breath in, holding the breath, and breathe out, letting go of the tension, ready to get back into your day and your reality. That is right now. Thank you so much for taking some time and, and hearing us out.
Sayeed 00:48:30 Yeah. Thank y'all. I am wishing you a wonderful rest of the day and I'm looking forward to our next check-in.
Rosy 00:48:38 Me too. Bye-bye.
Sayeed 00:48:39 Bye.