Dear Rosy Episode 2
Rosy 00:00:01 Hello everyone. Welcome to Dear Rosy and Hey Sayeed.
Sayeed 00:00:05 Hi. How y'all doing?
Rosy 00:00:06 So here we are again for episode number two, Training Or Trial By Fire. How are we preparing our teams to do the work? Um, I'm Rosy, I'm a licensed clinical professional counselor and I've been doing clinical work and organizational health support for over 15 plus years and supporting trauma survivors for that long too, as well as being an advocate.Sayeed, do you wanna remind us a little bit about you?
Sayeed 00:00:33 Yeah, of course. Hi everybody. Good morning. Good afternoon or good evening from whatever time you're listening. I'm Sayeed Sanchez, the advocacy manager for Mujeres. Um, I have three years leading our advocacy and policy work regarding immigrant justice, economic justice, access to healthcare and confronting gender-based violence. So, and I'm just super excited again to be able to chop it up with y'all.
Rosy 00:00:56 So we're in episode two and we started the first episode with a little get to know each other question so you all can get to know us and we can continue to get to know each other. So Sayeed, do you wanna ask? You chose this episode.
Sayeed 00:01:09 I'm excited. Yes. Thank you. So to kind of ground the space, um, Rosy, I would really love to ask you, um, about your younger self. So if you were to go back in time and ask your younger self or share, you know, about where you're at, where you are now, what's something your younger self would not believe about your life today?
Rosy 00:01:27 Okay, these are the deep questions, right? In true probably therapist form, as I reflect on my younger self and what they would be surprised is that there is this idea as a younger self me, that I had to be and do and for everyone, including be the one everybody goes to, to help and support them. Probably how I ended up in helping field, of course true. But there's this idea that if I wasn't available for everyone all the time, that I would lose people or I was a bad person or people wouldn't like me. I think younger self would be surprised that I get to say no. Or sometimes, you know, create my own space and not be go-to for everyone. And somehow I still have family and friends who love me. And I, I sadly, I think younger self would be surprised <laugh> that that's possible and present self me is very happy with that. So now you, why don't you tell me and those listening, what, what is something your younger self would be
Sayeed 00:02:29 For sure..
Rosy 00:02:29 Not believe about you now.
Sayeed 00:02:32 I love how your answer is like super deep and profound <laugh>, and I got this one and I was excited and I was just gonna be like, I'm gonna get back into the time machine and be like, Hey, I got that eyebrow piercing you thought you were never gonna get! 'cause your mama was never gonna let you get it <laugh>. No, no. But, um, in all seriousness, I mean, I did want to get that for a minute. Probably since I was like 11 or 12. I'm forgetting the name of the actor, but the actor from the old Scooby Do movies, oh my God, from the early two thousands. What's his name? He is big retro blonde hair, but he had all these like, sick face piercings. Anyway, someone will hear this say, I know what I'm talking,
Rosy 00:03:06 Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but I'm terrible with names. I'm not your person for that.
Sayeed 00:03:09 And neither was I as a little kid or now, but I was like, always, I'm like, wow, that's so cool. I want to get that. And my parents were like, never, you're never gonna get hired. And I'm like, well <laugh>, I'm still hired. Anyway. The other part, times have changed. The other part, um, I would share that though, um, in a more, I guess grateful also position would be that I don't think my younger self would ever believe that I've been able to travel as much as I've been able to. I think that's always something growing up from different, both cultures and, and my family is very multicultural, comes from different backgrounds. And so I think me, I've always been so curious and that's a value that I've been given from a young age to be able to see the world or to know about it, but because of limitations around finances or other things, you know, traveling is a great privilege.
Sayeed 00:04:01 That's not something I had access to when I was younger and it's always something I dreamed about doing. So I think if I went to my younger self and I was like, oh yeah, you, you'll study abroad and you, you go to school and you'll be able to live in these different countries. You'll be able to go to these different states. Part of work, you'll have the opportunity to travel. I just think I wouldn't believe in myself or I would be like so thrilled and so incredulous at the opportunity. And so that's something I'm very thankful that, you know, I've continued as, as a value and I've been able to actualize a little bit. But I'm thankful for my younger self to have that curiosity. That is something I've always felt. I always like to be a little bit out of my comfort zone in the context of learning about new or being able to travel or just being able to see something different and be like, oh yeah, that is a way of living or that's a way of eating. That's a way of being. And so yeah, I think my younger self would definitely be surprised. Maybe not believe how much I get to travel <laugh>.
Rosy 00:04:55 That's awesome. Piercings and travel. Do you have a favorite place you've been to?
Sayeed 00:04:59 Ooh, that's hard to pick. Um, <laugh>, I think I'll always share, like for me, having the opportunity to have studied and be an exchange student in Havana and Cuba, that was definitely life changing and so incredibly different from here for any obvious reasons, but like connections to people I talk to daily, still on WhatsApp and, and keep a close connection. I was there earlier this year and able to bring back some resources and be with folks, which was really lovely and beautiful. But I think that, um, in terms of trajectory for me too, as I was finishing up college, it was just a very impactful, momentous time in my life. So I'm really thankful I got to do that. And I think it improved it for the better for sure.
Rosy 00:05:40 I have a lot of questions about your traveling inCuba, but I'm not gonna keep them here. They're gonna be off this episode so we can focus on what we're here to talk about. But also what a great question and to remind ourselves that, you know, things aren't always going to be what we think they're gonna be and we don't know what the future always brings first us for us, including right now, we don't know what this version of us doesn't know about our future. That things can drastically change. And we just don't know it yet. So how does that help with me with holding onto hope sometimes. And also to be grateful for where I'm at right now, thinking of younger me not having the same resources and then now being able to have those, like you were talking about, a little more privilege, a little more independence to get those piercings.
Rosy 00:06:21 I have some of the piercing stories as well. <laugh>. Um, okay. So training or trial by fire. I think this is a great topic. You get hired, you're on the job and sometimes or many a times, we don't always have the best onboarding experience or there is an onboarding and policy procedure experience or sitting in front of a laptop and watching a lot of videos, um, to make sure that we're compliant with things, but not always getting the up to date version possibly of what it actually looks like to do our job and what, what is happening out there. How are people preparing ours, our us for it? Or maybe since our leaders weren't prepared, they don't prepare us too as well. So we're gonna start with a question. So what role does ongoing education and professional development play in maintaining effective training initiatives to support sexual assault survivors or other social services agencies? So not just onboarding, what do we think this idea of training, ongoing training even? What are your thoughts on this?
Sayeed 00:07:24 Yeah, no, thank you for that. I think for so many of us, right, we think of this, we like, we know we come in as natural helpers. We want to be able to help and we're like, this is a role or position where I can come in and be able to put my skills to use. And so when we get the job, we're like, awesome, we got here. And then we're like, okay, now what? Like where do we go from here? And so one of the things I appreciate about this is that educational and professional development, it's a journey. It's ongoing, right? And I think, if we can work to, as a sector, ensuring that we have robust onboarding and ensuring that the expectations are there, right? I think of it kind of like a house. You wanna make sure the base is strong, we can walk in, right?
Sayeed 00:08:04 So you've done all this work, you found a place, you know, you're really excited. And then you gotta actually make sure like, oh, is the floor is the actual base like stable for me to be able to build upon? And then going from there, right? I'm gonna continue to develop and continue to build from there. But I wanna make sure I have a strong base for me that is onboarding, that is making sure the expectations, the policies and the support from this. But what I found is oftentimes, and you share with me, Rosy, what you think, I feel like sometimes the pace is so fast, so hectic, and sometimes our supervisors didn't get that opportunity, right? So then there becomes like, oh, we are all kind of working on this expectation of not really a full onboarding or it's been normalized, so just keep going, going, going and figure out as you go along. I don't know, does that resonate with you?
Rosy 00:08:52 Yes, a lot. Especially when you're working off sometimes some grants that you're just fighting to get the money that's out there. There might not be a lot. Everyone's fighting to get it and sometimes those deadlines are tight or they change those deadlines on us and we are working almost instead of putting that base, like you said, we work before the base. We're not setting up the expectations and skills that we're really needing. And maybe we're even hiring people that aren't ready but hold certain, certain specific experiences but not all the experiences or we're not fully assessing that. People aren't always completely honest on their background. Or maybe we don't make all the reference checks, we don't have time. So there's time also that you said the normalization of that. I think that normalization of like that sink or swim, it comes up even earlier on than your job.
Rosy 00:09:37 Especially when you hold marginalized identities and you're navigating new situations. I spent a lot of time in universities and supporting first generation college students and the idea that like, you're the only one or the first one navigating these systems, you get used to having to figure things out on your own. Because you don't even know what questions to ask as well. So that sink or swim already filtered you through these systems. 'cause the people who figured out how to swim are, they're already doing this sometimes without the guidance or the expectations or explanations from supervisors. So then if you end up in a job that's doing the same sink or swim mentality might already be normalized and internalized in you that you don't even know that you should be asking for. Where do you keep the policy and procedure manual? What are my expectations and what are the outcomes you want from me?
Rosy 00:10:25 How often are we meeting to discuss these? What not knowing even the questions to ask in the first place. And that's also why we do, we have this conversation here in the podcast. 'cause we wanna talk about that. We wanna talk about that you as an employee have the right to have clear expectations and know what the expectations are of you as well as an evaluation of how you're doing. And that these things should also be documented and supported in some way that you feel that you understand what's expected of you. And that's not always the case. And sometimes it is, which is wonderful. But those also change. So if things are evolving and changing, how are we reassessing needs and like needs for training? Which, you know, is there money for that too? Is there money to bring in specialized trainings that someone might need?
Sayeed 00:11:14 Absolutely. I mean I think that's how I think about it. The ongoing part is, okay, where do we put the resources? Where do we put the investment? Where do we put the infrastructure? Right? Resources. Whether that is bringing in external training, bringing in support. I know Rosy, you've done that for Mujeres more times than I can count. And we're so thankful for that. But I think that's just one clear example that comes to me is how do we actually bring in folks who have this skillset to be able to provide some of that resource? And I appreciate sometimes you actually, this ongoing professional development. I find that someone who doesn't work at the organization but shares similar values or alignment, but can kind of bring sort of a maybe a more objective lens or like overview site to us is actually incredibly helpful because an out sort of an outsider's perspective review, y'all can see where we have these gaps or maybe these gaps that we've unintentionally but done nonetheless. Maybe we've normalized kind of operating on fumes or not having that onboarding.
Rosy 00:12:14 Yeah. It's kind of, see it, it's kind of hard to see it when you're in it. And also you have more at stake when you're actually an employee. You know, if you're the constant squeaky wheel, you don't wanna be the only squeaky wheel or you're worried about how it might impact your compensation or your promotion or how people see you. So it's nice to have an outside person come in 'cause they don't have that same investment in in possibly losing that job. Which is important. There are power dynamics at play that need to be aware, right? Sometimes talking to leadership in different organizations, like, well they know, they can tell me, well how are, what are the avenues to tell you or share with you if they're feeling like they need more training? Is there an anonymous format? Because even if you all get along and you're a great nice person, you still hold power.
Rosy 00:12:59 And we can't ignore the power you hold over your employees, whether you like it or not, or whether you're comfortable as a leader or supervisor for holding it. That's something you need to really explore and acknowledge. 'cause ignoring it is also harmful, pretending like we're all family when the paycheck I get is gonna put a roof over my head or feed my children is not okay either. And that's something that's not always fun to talk about because we care about each other, you know? But also there is a power dynamic that needs to be identified. What are your thoughts about that one?
Sayeed 00:13:34 Yeah, no I mean you touched on so many good points. I think one immediately I was resonating with what you shared around leadership and the role in this because I do think leadership obviously plays a critical role. And I think we're oftentimes right, we're taught, you know, especially non director staff, it's like, hey, if you have an issue, feel free to come to us. Come speak. We want to hear that. And like, while the best intention that may be true, and to your point, right, when someone holds power over you for obvious reasons, you have to be delicate about your words or you may be reluctant to share them. Another perspective I appreciate and I really respected when my supervisors and leadership have done this, is actually being proactive in coming to the staff they supervise and asking, hey, are your needs being met?
Sayeed 00:14:19 Is there something you're interested in? Is there something you'd like to see happen? Even if that's just like the supervisor check-in and dedicating, you know, five to 10 minutes to be like, hey, let's go over what changes. I also really appreciate when leadership practices transparency and shares, you know, this is what's in my power to change and this is what's not. And like I'm in alignment with you in these things and I can commit to working on this. But if you're, you know, expecting a change in the next 30 days, in the next 60 or whatever, like, this is what we can commit to right now. Because also no one loves to be, you know, fed, you know, false promises or things that, again, we wish we could all be here. But at the end of the day, I will really appreciate and respect the leadership for being able to be honest with me and really let me know where they're at.
Sayeed 00:15:06 And that for me as an employee is important for retention and respect and feeling like I'm actually listened to versus being quite short of shared niceties or where we think where we want the organization to be at versus where we're actually at. So I really appreciate that. And the last note too is, I don't know about y'all, but I feel a type of way at times if when, and this is nonprofits in general, I've seen this trend, the use of family language. Um, at times it's a real touch and go because I think, uh, wow, for example, I really respect and admire my colleagues. I also recognize that with the work that I do is paid and you have to pay me to do it. It's not, it's incredibly important work. It's work that saves lives, especially the direct service program.
Sayeed 00:15:51 But I feel like at times, whether intentional or not, the use of the familial language can sort of hide or obfuscate unfair power dynamics and at times encourages non director staff to sort of continually go above and beyond and not get paid or recognized for that additional work. Right? Like, oh, we're all family. So you wanna say extra on things. And I'm not sharing that this is something that's happened to me directly per se, but it is a theme that I know that nonprofit sector kind of struggles with. So I'd love to hear your thoughts, Rosy, as a mental health practitioner professional, if this is something that, you know you've seen in the sector, maybe past clients you've had to help with.
Rosy 00:16:30 A hundred percent. And like I do think it's, it's something that sometimes comes up as like, this is a strength. You know, we talk about each other as family and I'm like, not a strength, unpopular opinion that is harmful. That's actually harmful 'cause it's borderline, um, it's kind of a little manipulative. Yeah. Right. It kind of pokes at you like, we're family, so why, you know, you should do more. Like you were saying and, and it pushes people to set less boundaries sometimes. Or also you're just talking about something that is not true. We can be a caring, compassionate, connected work community and hold a lot of care for each other without using the word family. Because family just isn't true. This isn't my chosen family. Um, this isn't my bio family. This is where I chose, where I'm working, where I chose to work, where I have to work. And we can still hold important values of care and communication and support without using that word. So I do encourage people not to use family as words. I do think it's harmful.
Sayeed 00:17:38 It blurs boundaries. And one important distinction I've set as a boundary and make sure to practice. And it's, it's no shade, it's no harm, but it's just by definition, you don't have to pay me to be with family, with chosen family with whom I chose, you know, to be, but to do my work, you do have to pay me. And it does not mean I'm not committed to the work. It does not mean that I do not bring my full self or my full, full fashion and value, but it does mean that this is a way that I'm paying my bills, that I push shelter above me. And while I appreciate, for me, it does feel great to be able to do work that's in alignment with my personal values. And that's why, that's a large reason why I'm here. It's not the only, and it's certainly a very distinct, it's an important distinction that doesn't apply to my family, whether by or chosen I'm not being paid to be with them. Right. So I do think that's important. That's something that I decided early on in my career that I was going to protect and state as a boundary and make sure that people know that it's not me being contentious or being like, I'm not a team player, but it's important for me to have that clear boundary because then you don't want blurred and you don't want what I feel like is a path to burnout.
Rosy 00:18:47 Yep. Definitely. And we're already kind of set up for burnout in so many ways. And I think that also involves a lot of responsibility on the individual for you all to understand what are your boundaries and what is the role of work in your life. And I think when you're in social services, you mentioned this, you know, it goes along with your values. I think it, usually when we're in the social services, it's because we're doing work that really focuses on care and goes into our values. And I think that makes it a little bit harder sometimes. And that's also why we blur our own boundaries. So it really involves you having to reflect on, on what do you want your role at work and home to be and how do you create some separation from that where possible. Sometimes we're in smaller towns or smaller community populations too, where that can be more difficult 'cause you're running into participants outside of work.
Rosy 00:19:37 And they have different roles in your life. And that also involves some more support and understanding on how you're sharing, how you're gonna be communicating specific boundaries. I've worked in university settings and also in nonprofits in my own community where I run into people that I am providing services for and that requires communication. When you start providing services or meet your participants or your peers that you're working with, if you're also living in the same environment of like, hey, you know, I'm gonna be providing the support for you, we also, I know we live in the same neighborhood. Or I might see you at these things. I as a clinician have confidentiality. So I'm not supposed to acknowledge you, but I also am a human being who smiles and says hi to people all the time.
Rosy 00:20:20 So I'm also going to acknowledge that. It's really hard for me to completely ignore you. I say hi to strangers all the time, but I will never approach you. And I will never identify you as someone I know. That's up to you. Right? So communication is so key. And that again, comes up with the training that we're talking about. If you're feeling like you are sinking and it might be 'cause you're overworked, but it might be because you just really need a little boost on a certain scale. We were just earlier, Sayeed and I were talking about my writing skills and my concerns with not being the strongest. And I have many reasons for that, but maybe that's something I need a little boost in. If I'm not communicating that with my supervisor or with whoever my boss is, then I'm also not gonna get the support if I'm not sharing that, communication from them to me and me to them.
Rosy 00:21:13 Now, if they haven't created a relationship where I feel comfortable sharing that, what do I do now? Right? If someone's like, Hey, Rosy, hey Sayeed, like, yeah, that sounds all good, but like if I tell my boss that they're just going to be like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, use your own money for training, then maybe we, you find ways to get creative and hopefully you have peers that can support you. Talk to other people, whether it's to jointly advocate for more money to be placed in training for everyone or because they have that skill that they wanna share with you and you can share something with them and that will be more individual professional development, not so much for work. Or you get to set that boundary. And also, whenever you do have tough conversations with your supervisor, I do encourage everyone to document, document, document.
Rosy 00:22:00 We hope for the best, but we want to prepare a little bit for, you know, if later on you're getting questioned on why you didn't complete something or why you needed more time. If you have the documentation that you're requesting more training beause you're needing a little bit more support on something that might not have been in your original, especially if it's not in your original job description role. Because you weren't hired for that, but were asked to do this. That shouldn't be a penalty to you. And you can have something documented and like, how do you have something documented? We're not recording people. You're, you're not supposed to do that without permission. But a tip I give is, oh, you had a meeting with a supervisor, sent a follow up email. Hey, I just wanna check in about what we talked about today.
Rosy 00:22:39 These were the things we talked about. Thank you so much for giving of your time, or I appreciate this, just wanted to make sure we're on the same page so I'm sending an email and now you have it documented. If sending an email like that isn't something you can do, then just write it down on this day for yourself. Just because you have it written down on this day at this time we had this conversation. I do think the email is the best. Um, but writing it down, writing it down is important.
Sayeed 00:23:04 Absolutely. So good. And I love, like you said, write it down, document it, I'm like, document it if it was good, if it was bad, if it was so so. It's just a good practice in general. Right. And it doesn't have to be a document, like “ooh I got ya”. It’s a document, like first of all, I'm forgetful, so that's why I do that. Everybody's like, Sayeed, you're so good at da, da da. I'm like, thank you so much. And if I didn't I would completely forget. So that's why. But that's what works for me. The other advice I would give that to obviously everybody's relationship with the supervisor is gonna be different. I hope that it is great, but I know that real life, it's not always that way. And I've been in situations where I've had to improve it or we've have to do that.
Sayeed 00:23:42 I will say something that's been helpful for me is if you feel like in a difficult conversation or something where maybe you weren't getting the response that you wanted on a one-on-one. If you have the relationship with your colleagues, perhaps requesting it as a group meeting, because I think if there is something where it's around professional development, ongoing support, addressing a structural issue at the organization, um, there's strength in numbers, right? And so you don't have to be the person who sort of leads it 110%. That's a lesson I had to tell myself. That you can have colleagues who you are likely not the only one thinking that. Right. Whether that is investment in professional development or whether that is a addressing an issue, um, that may be prohibiting you or there's a dynamic, et cetera. I do think there's strength in numbers.
Sayeed 00:24:27 And I think that if you have the, the trust with your colleagues, maybe asking for, hey, do you guys feel comfortable if we discuss this? I'd like to discuss this. And either, at the next regular, you know, program, department meeting or, calling in one specific for this and just being like, X, Y, Z we're all interested in this. So that way one person doesn't have to be singled out as a person who's like kind of, you know, um, instigating or whatever you want to call it. Right? Not that it's gonna be assumed to be that, but again, understanding that we all have different relationships with our supervisors and they hold power over us. So it's like, I get it, even when it's, you have the best relationship with your boss, it might be a little nervous if you're going in and you wanna ask for some additional professional development or your career advancement, et cetera. Like, that's nerve wracking. So sometimes having that support from your colleagues can make a lot of difference.
Rosy 00:25:17 Yeah. And as leaders and supervisors, please be honest to your staff, don't promise some things that aren't gonna happen. You know, ask, let them know, you know what, I for sure, like, we don't have the money in this budget. This is important to me and I'm gonna write it down, but remind me during our conversation at this state that this is something and can you look this up? And then hopefully they don't give you a lot of work to do. 'cause that's also not a great thing, But just maybe the reminder, I mean, we're gonna be developing a new budget next year and this is important and I want to see if we can get some money for it. But also be honest, I don't know if that's gonna be possible. So I think that that's important. Honesty, genuineness. Don't just say that you're gonna do something and then never do it.
Rosy 00:26:00 And if you didn't do it, say why you didn't do it. I've had some tough conversations in organizations and nonprofits early on in my career where I've left organizations because I finally had someone very high up pretty much tell me after they had been saying, we are gonna implement some change to support this specific population of the community, this is important to us. And then feeling like it wasn't happening. And finally having a meeting with this leader and the leader straight up telling me, Hey, this isn't gonna happen. This isn't the community that we are focused on. Wow. And it hurt to hurt to hear, it was upsetting. I was angry. Because I don't think it was a good move, but I'm not in leadership. That was their decision. And I then had to sit with it and be like, okay, I know the truth at least I'm not just sitting here trying to push something that's not gonna change. I know what, where they're going with this. And they were honest with me. And I have to be honest with myself. If this is a place where I see myself in the future, and you know, I stuck around until I could get another job because, you know, leaving a job is not easy either. And the work environment and the hiring situation right now isn't the easiest. But at least I knew now not to put my energy somewhere where it wasn't gonna be heard. And that, that was helpful.
Sayeed 00:27:17 No, absolutely. I mean, I think that's a really good point. And I think once you have that information, right, you get to make the decision for yourself. Like, is this a deal breaker? Is this something I can live with? Is this something I can go from different? And so once you finally have that, you can go forward. I think as a, for me, what's important is that organizations with transparency as much as possible in that leadership's messaging internally and externally aligned. And I think that to me is an important, the type of work that I do and the type of work we do, I hope is aligned on the value of anti-oppression, right? Anti-oppression in terms of gender-based violence, but also anti-oppression in terms of other facets of power and control. But let's be real, we know sometimes in the nonprofit sector, we still struggle with that.
Sayeed 00:28:01 So I'd love to ask you, Rosy, just kind of thinking about the elements. You know, we use the terminologies trauma informed, we use the terminologies anti-oppression frameworks, um, but how do we really utilize those? And how can that en enhance some of our training, for sexual assault providers, for our care service providers or just any understanding the nature of this sector and how draining it can be. How do we actually use it internally? What does it mean to apply a trauma informed or anti-oppressive framework for our own care workers in this field?
Rosy 00:28:34 That is a great question.
Rosy 00:28:39 Basically how do you integrate trauma-informed and Anti-oppression into the work is first you need to know what it is. And we all need to be on the same page. Okay. On what that means. And there are actual like definitions for this, but at least in your smaller group, in your organization, in your leadership, in your agency, that staff and leadership understand the definition of this. We are in spaces where people throw out these words a lot and also are scared to say, I don't know what that means, or feel like they'll be judged if they don't know what that means. And as someone who does training in this, I will say I don't always know what is the right definition for this? I know the values that go along with this. And then I know that there's trainings around something.
Rosy 00:29:29 So, there are trainings on trauma-informed, there are trainings on anti-oppressive oppressive work. You're not always gonna have specialists in your organization who know how to do this. But there's also literature, if you have funds to get outside help to come do that training. Or do a consultation or assessment of your policies and procedures and power dynamics to assess for this, that's great. If you don't, there are a lot of resources around this topic. Trauma-informed talks and anti-oppressive work and the power control dynamics. It's knowing how you're impacting others. And doing work with care and compassion and not in a way to create, create people to do what you want. And understanding that everyone has different experiences. So how are we being inclusive and equitable in how we invite people to the conversation and also in how we do the work.
Rosy 00:30:27 And that also talks about policies and procedures. How do we have anonymous ways for people to give feedback? How do we have a policy or procedure if someone feels that they've been harmed and how do they report it? Who do they tell and what is the lens they're using to address that harm? Are we using punishing ways? Punitive ways to hurt people when they do things, that's not very compassionate. Right? We know that we're all humans and that part of this work is that sometimes we're gonna say or do things that aren't gonna be helpful and sometimes even harmful. So how are we open to that discussion? But minimum, minimum, I would say, what does trauma-informed and anti-oppressive frameworks, what are those in your organization? Can people in your organization actually name those? Or if you as a leader, if you are a leader, share what that is, would other people agree with you?
Rosy 00:31:23 And that also requires some of your own healing work too. And looking at yourself and, and how you take care of yourself. But we can't control that at work. So that's why we have policies and procedures that are very specific on how to report harm and the lens that is used to confront the harm that was done and the consequences for what was done. And I've actually helped develop some of those policies in different organizations. So it depends on the organization and what we're discussing, but probably like conflict resolution, having healing circles, spaces for people to share how they're feeling. And that takes extra time and energy. And sometimes in social services we don't. And you know what I'm gonna even say social services everywhere that I have participated in doesn't always focus on that because it is more work to give space for healing.
Sayeed 00:32:17 No, I really appreciate that. I think something I want to bring in while you're speaking, it's making me think about, um, one of our trainings that Dr. Noor, shout out, was giving an offering to, to our staff here at Mujeres, on pod mapping and creating these sort of collective circles to reflect on who could you actually call in a moment of crisis or support, right? Not assuming community or family, they may be in part of that, but um, really like who could you call during a difficult moment and who could you provide that support to? And another really interesting concept is around generative conflict. And so, thinking about, right, again, conflict, usually we associate, right? It's not a great feeling. It's something we don't wanna be in. It's something we often maybe want to avoid. But in moments where you are in maybe out of your comfort zone, but not so far out that you're unsafe, but there's still a moment where it can be generative for someone else has a different viewpoint.
Sayeed 00:33:10 Oh, somebody else has a different life experience. Or is bringing something to the table that I'm not used to. How do we still meet in the middle or come together and work it out? Still on shared alignment value, still recognizing power in the room, still recognizing these different elements that, let's be real, we're not really taught often how to navigate and when we get to adulthood and we're still figuring it out. To me, these are elements when I think of, oh, this is part of, or has to be in conversation with anti-oppressive work, right? Or this is conversations with, with trauma informed because I, again, I don't know about y'all, but I can name when I've seen something oppressive and I can name when I see something as a response to trauma, for sure. But when I think of the positives, how do we get out of that or out of that reactive mode, I feel like more of a learner and more of a, oh, where do we actually go? But I think some tools, um, like you were sharing and like Dr. Noor was sharing, I'm like, oh, these are ways now we could start to move towards that direction. Right. Still, still with humility, I'm still a learner, but now I feel like I'm actually learning some tools towards that.
Rosy 00:34:17 Yes. How do, like the, so many things you said but yeah, shout out Dr. Noor great, great educator, <laugh> Yes. Giving some great skills and strategies. How is it generative? How are we— we learn conflict and how to address conflict early on in our lives. So we can't control that. And who's at work, how they learned how to address conflict and what they do. But we can have policies, procedures, and a culture of how conflict is addressed at work. And if, and if you have policies and procedures written. And also how are they implemented? Because we have the policy and procedure doesn't mean anyone's actually looking at it or using it. That's the other thing. Implementation. So how do you address conflict?
Rosy 00:35:07 What's the culture at your organization? First assess that, where are you someone who avoids and then everyone's talking about each other and it just creates this avoidance. And now these two people just don't talk and don't wanna work with each other. And as a leader, you just listen to that and don't let them work together. So complete avoidance. And then you learn, well this is how conflict is addressed. You just tell people you don't wanna work with them and then you don't have to anymore. And now there's an avoidance, a culture of conflict even though that there might be a policy and procedure on how to actually address it. But then, you know, your supervisor doesn't wanna deal with it. It’s hard to deal with. It's uncomfortable conversations, but you can create so much connection through that conflict too, which is amazing. I'm a big believer in that. Connection through conflict. Not everyone's favorite thing. So first assess where that is and then you need to model it and actually follow through on it. And sometimes you need actual models like you were talking about too and steps to take and who can facilitate and things like that. Which trainings can provide for you. There are models to do conflict resolution in work environments.
Sayeed 00:36:18 I mean, I'll say that's something I would love to see personally. It would benefit from a professional and personal, like all that. Because at the end our work is relationship based. Right? And so I think, again, I think boundaries, um, is a compliment, not an antagonist to that. And I think that conflict resolution is a skill and that's something I'll note that I can continue to work on and want to work on. And I'll note it's not easy work, but it's work that if you have that base kind of connected back, like that house level, I want the base to be fortified. It's hard to start thinking, right? I have all these wonderful ideas, these amazing colleagues and I wanna be able to achieve, but if we're not on the same page or like to your note, right? We have a conflict and we don't know how to address it or resolve it, that doesn't help anybody in the room.
Sayeed 00:37:06 And not addressing harm that was done doesn't make the harm, you know, magically disappear. I would think, especially in a sector for the work that we do, that's something we can, in some ways I was incorrect to assume or presume that. Right. And that's, that's a lesson for myself. But I think going, moving forward for that, I'm like, that's not something I'll take for granted. That's something I'll name as a value name as I appreciate and wanna move forward. But, something I'm appreciative really just in learning from you Rosy and learning from Dr. Noor and some other wonderful educators and advocates in the spaces, this is something, um, at any age, any stage of your career, you can be working on leadership, down to someone who just joined our org. Any org righ can always be improving on this. And that's something that I definitely know as a value and something I want to continue to improve on.
Rosy 00:37:56 We are gonna have another episode, I think on conflict resolution. But part of that regarding training is that I do also wanna be clear, and you'll hear this a lot in the conflict resolution episode, is that just 'cause there's a resolution to the conflict does not mean that everybody leaves that conversation happy. Conflict resolution does not mean that everyone gets what they want, they want or that everyone is happy and happiness is the goal of conflict resolution. Happiness is not the goal of conflict resolution.
Sayeed 00:38:27 And sometimes it's not achievable.
Rosy 00:38:29 It's not achievable. Not always. You can't make everybody happy. And if that is your goal, you're going to fail. And usually make more people angry at you. You know, conflict resolution is that people feel heard, understood. And that if they still have hurt feelings or anger that it's up to them outside of work. We talk about, we keep saying the word boundaries. That's the boundary. I as your boss, it is not my responsibility to hold you as you cry or to process your trauma history. Unless I am your therapist, if that is my therapy or I'm your best friend or you know, that’s a different hat, a different relationship.
Rosy 00:39:06 My relationship is to care about it. And support that you can have access to that in whatever way I'm able to. And to respect it. But I'm not here to hold and process trauma with you or cheer you up because you're upset that you had a consequence to the behavior. You had to know I have to make you happy with it. And I think that's where it gets rough. It's touchy because I do think we, people come into situations thinking like, well I'm really angry and you need to fix this or you need to make them not do that anymore. I can't control other people's behavior, but if they're breaking policy I can address it, but I can't make them be your best friend. Or be like extra generous to you. And I think that's what boundaries also, we're gonna talk more about conflict later.
Rosy 00:39:54 How are we feeling about the topic right now? Training or trial by fire. I mean, training is needed for conflict resolution.
Sayeed 00:40:00 Yeah. I feel so good. I feel like I'm about to write up a couple emails to my boss. We gotta get trainings now.
Rosy 00:40:06 Maybe develop trainings about it as well. Also apologies to passed supervises
for not being, for not being the supervisor to everyone else. They need to work on being. 'cause we're human.
Sayeed 00:40:16 We're growing, we're growing.
Rosy 00:40:17 Yeah. We're always learning.
Sayeed 00:40:18 Listen, that is the beauty of it. So I, again, it's always such a privilege. Um, Rosy, I am really excited for our next episode, um, when we get to talk more into this because I feel like part of it we're coming and I'm like, wait, I wanna go to this, I'm gonna go to this. But I do want to pass it over to you to offer any grounding, um, closings with us and to, and to thank again our listeners here today and to let y'all know we will be getting into this further.
Rosy 00:40:44 Thanks Sayeed and thanks to everyone who's listening. Hopefully there's parts of this that resonated with you. Hopefully you're feeling heard, validated, and hopefully you found some sort of tool or strategy or support to push you forward on your next step of action that is helpful for you. Or that step of action can actually be just rest. Because it is very necessary for many of us who are going through some things. Correct. So we're gonna end with a little bit of grounding. So I'm just gonna ask that wherever you are, try to get comfortable. If you are driving well, whatever that comfort looks like you. But please pay attention to what you are doing.
Sayeed 00:41:19 Don't close your eyes!
Rosy 00:41:21 Don’t close your eyes. But if you are able to safely close your eyes, I ask you to close your eyes and take a deep breath in. Hold it. Deep breath, slow breath out. Now place your right hand over your heart and we're just gonna remind ourselves that we are worthy of rest, we are worthy of healing, and we are safe. I hope you all find some rest today and some joy and I look forward to more topics.
Sayeed 00:42:15 Alright. Thank you guys for joining and I'll catch you on the next episode.
Rosy 00:42:18 Bye-bye.